UTH and the Drainage Layer

[Keeshe]

Hi there,

New to this forum.

I know there have been a number of threads on this topic but I was hoping that I could get a more specific answer.

I am pretty new to this frog stuff. I am trying to set up a great place for my Whites Tree Frogs. I currently have a 24x24x18 Exo Terra. I was following the advise from the videos posted by LLLReptile have place a UTH on the bottom of my tank, and have a thick layer of the coconut fiber Eco Earth on top of it. The enclosure includes a mix of live plants (on the front and opposite side of the UTH) and fake plants (over the UTH). The frogs also have two soaking bowls on opposite ends of the tank (in the front), but on the other side of the UTH (in the back right side). There is no (planned) standing water in the enclosure other than the two bowls and the waterfall.

So here is the problem, I also have a Repti Rapids waterfall, that seems to occasionally leak and make my substrate a little swampy. I believe the problem with the waterfall is that there is a little piece of sponge at the top that slips out slightly every once and while and touches one of the sides of the waterfall, allowing water to spill out. Thus coconut fiber swamp ensues. I plan on calling Zoomed tomorrow and seeing if that sponge is needed or if it can removed.

Thus far have not had any problems with UTH and any cracked glass due to this leakage, which bring me to the question (sorry for the long winded build up).

With a set up like this, is a drainage layer needed / would it be helpful? If so, any advise on a safe way to set one up with the UTH where it is?

Thank you!

p.s. this forum is amazing and has been a huge help with preventing stupid mistakes before they happen. My Whites thank you all.

Here is a picture of their enclosure.

[ColleenT]

what is UTH?

[deranged chipmunk]

First and foremost, welcome to the forum

Anytime you are adding excess water to an enclosure, via misting, a drainage layer is a good idea. With the drainage layer, you have someplace for that extra water to go instead of swamping out your substrate. The concern of water in the bottom of the tank and the uth is a legitimate one. I have seen tanks crack from this, but I have also seen people who have used the same method and not have issues. So, the choice is yours.

A drainage layer can be as simple as roughly 2" of aquarium gravel, some form of barrier, whether it be fiberglass screening, landscape fabric, ect to keep the substrate out of the drainage area, then your substrate on top of that. Don't forget to leave yourself a way to remove the excess water from the drainage layer. A simple piece of aquarium air tubing works well for this, and can be left with it's end in the drainage layer and run outside of the tank so you don't have to move anything to drain the layer out.

Hope this helps. There is a more thorough explanation in the vivarium construction stickie in this section with pics to help you along




Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[deranged chipmunk]

what is UTH?

Under tank heater


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Well Keeshe... sorry to be the harbinger of bad news to you; but your present enclosure is a disaster waiting to happen. UTHs in frog tanks do not belong to the bottom since frogs natural tendency is to burry in order to cool off. You can use on the sides if so desired; but they are inefficient done that way. A basking type light on a dimmer dome is a much better choice and will help provide the needed 85F basking spot.

As Bill mentioned; a false bottom or drainage layer to collect extra water is not an optional necessity. No matter which design you go with; it is necessary to prevent the substrate from flooding and becoming a bacteria breeding bog. Talking of substrate, if using live plants need ABG type soil since shredded coco is not a good substrate for them.

Recommend visit the Vivarium section and search for Bill's build threads; specially one called Mantella Paladurium. Know is crazy to tell you to tear up your vivarium and start again; but it will save you lots of problems in the future to start it right now .

[Keeshe]

Thanks for the both of your responses. I found it confusing while searching through the forums reading how people used an UTH and a drainage layer with no problems, and other were so against the idea. It makes sense though.

I have not had problems with flooding before adding this waterfall. I talked with ZooMed CS this morning and they said that the pressure on the waterfall is likely turned up too high and that is what is causing the sponge to move. So, we will be checking on that during cleaning. But just to clarify, we are manually misting so only if see the humidity starting to drop. That has caused the substrate to remain moist but far from saturate. Is that moist state what you mean by excess water?

Bummer about the UTH. I was following the advise on the Foster and Smith Website. - How to Create the Ideal White's Tree Frog Habitat. Had heard about the back of tank placement option from the LLLReptile video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YaYQEYonvg#t=457. But had also read that like you said that is an inefficient way to heat. Also seemed like kind of a hazard with the heated glass then touching a foam background. Paranoid, I am sure.

Had not heard of Whites Three Frogs burrowing though, interesting new bit to do some more research on. That being said, the UTH was basically there for supplemental heat. They have a dome basking light running along with Exo Terra Full Spectrum and UVB bulbs (found a research article that pointed to lengthening life spans of captive Whites Tree Frogs). The house is unfortunately drafty, which means AC units during the summer and some unpredictable heat (and cold) throughout the house. We went with both because we were getting too much fluctuation in the heat levels through out the day.

I also had not heard anything about the Eco Earth not working with live plants. All the roots seem to be growing out and one plant has even started sending up new shoots. I will have to do some additional research there also.

Thanks again for your help.

[Keeshe]

For what ever reason, I didn't have the option to edit my post. Figured I would give more info cause now I am all paranoid I am doing it wrong.

The lights are 2 26watt CF style bulbs. One is the Exo Terra Full Spectrum one for promoting plant growth. The other is the UVB bulb for tropical (2.0 I think?) The heath bulbs are both ZooMed, a 50W Red during the day and a 50W night blue one for after hours.

At this point though, I have read through about 50 forum posts and will be off to the hardware store tomorrow to get the materials for the false bottom made with egg crate. Going off the plans from - http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...se-bottom.html. (Bill's sticky was epic!) It looks like Bill advises 2-3in diameter PVC for the couplings. Do you think 1.5 in would work? I have a pair of PVC cutters, that say they can cut up to 2 in, but it is much easier with a smaller diameter. Last question based on the http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...se-bottom.html build. Do you put anything in between the bottom and the egg crate such as gravel or hydroballs? I would think that you would need to provide insulation, and to make it look a little better from the front?

Thanks again! Love this forum.

[Mentat]

Think the wider PVC is preferred because it adds stability and contacts more of the eggcrate distributing the weight better. If using smaller PVC tubes, would just add more of them in a similar ratio of the decrease in diameter. For example, 1.5 in. is half the diameter of 3 in.; so just double the amount of PVC supports.

Nothing needs to go in the false bottom space, it's there just to collect extra water until you drain it as needed (either through drilled hole and bulkhead or via a tube access and aquarium siphon from top).

Don't forget to ^ notch the bottoms of PVC "legs" so that water does not pool inside them. Another trick myself do is to very carefully (have someone with work gloves hold PVC and start drill very slowly or much better, use a vise to hold it) drill two opposite holes in the PVC top area, large enough to pass a very small and long enough cable tie that will hold together the PVC piece, egg crate, and plastic screen .

[Keeshe]

OK last question. How long after constructing on of the PVC egg crate false bottoms is it safe to return the frogs to the enclosure. This assumes that the PVC and egg crate will be completely washes down with hot water prior to assembly.

Thanks as always!

[deranged chipmunk]

Carlos is 100% correct. If using thinner diameter pipe, more are needed. This prevents the eggcrate from sagging and the substrate getting swamped from wicking up moisture. Figure out how many you think you'll need, and then multiply by 1.5. Most people tend to use too few supports.

You can cover tej outer part of the false bottom with acrylic paint, or my fav, black shelf paper. It's cheap and easily removed.

Theoretically, you can add the frogs right back in after you set it up, but white's are rather destructive when it comes to plants, so I always recommend a month to allow the plants to establish themselves.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Keeshe]

Hey there! I ended up going with a 1.5" layer (approximately more like 2") of the Hydroballs below the substrate. Turns out that waterfall leaking was the culprit because not more than half a day later, there is a visible inch of standing water in the substrate layer. So that sucks, but the plan is work up a new build eventually with a false bottom that allows the waterfall to be completely under water, so that it won't mater if leaks.

On a happy note, as you may be able to see, I dramatically changed the entire tank also. Think it is more tree frog appropriate now. My dad bet me 5 bucks that despite looking cool, the frogs would never use that hanging vine. 10 minutes later, five bucks more in the wallet. Thanks for all the help everyone!