So lost... my new toads are dead :(

[junebug]

I have no idea what I did wrong.

I ordered three bumble bee toads from Josh's Frogs. They arrived healthy and fat, apparently one female and two males judging by body shape alone. They were small but active and healthy.

I put them in a barebottom QT critter keeper with a small water dish and a the media in which they were shipped as hides, as it was obviously non-toxic and was what I had handy. The QT sits on top of what was intended as their permanent home, so the humidity in their tank (as judged by plant health and hygrometer) should theoretically be about the same as what it was in their QT. It has been around 55-70% humidity in their permanent home since they arrived, with a few dips and jumps here and there.

QT care was as advised - daily misting (I've been doing twice daily as the humidity in my town has dropped considerably since the toads arrived) with ff feedings and regular water changes on their water dish.

What really confuses me is this. The toads have, since I got them last week, been totally fine. They slept in their shipping media, ate like pigs, pooped regularly and what appeared to be healthy (small black rice-like poops). Nothing had changed today except that one of them was spending more time in the water dish than was usual for him. But given that I literally just got them, I wasn't worried about it. Again he was eating and pooping regularly. At approximately 5:30pm all three toads were out and about, hanging around the water dish where they've always spent quite a lot of time. I tapped a few melanogaster into the QT, went out with my friends, and when we came back to my apartment at 9:30, all of the toads were not moving. At 10:30pm my boyfriend finally said he thought there was something up with them, because they all looked "flat". I used their water siphon (aka turkey baster) to gently nudge one of them.

And they are dead. All three of them.

What did I do wrong? I really want to keep these toads, but it seems cruel and pointless if they're just going to die on me two days before I plan to add them to their tank.

I have springtails and isopods arriving for the main tank, probably on Wed or Thurs. I still plan on seeding it, and hopefully getting more toads, but I need to know what went wrong, what I should have done differently.

[DigitalPunk]

So sorry for your loss. I have a few ideas, but to make sure I am giving you the most accurate answer please copy and paste the below and put your answers out beside the questions.


QUESTIONS

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? )
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves)
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

[junebug]

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)- bumble bee toads - Melanophryniscus stelzneri according to Josh's Frogs where I purchased them.
2----please include a photo of the frog - ew, no. They are just little dry crispies now lol. No one wants to see that.
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure - See above.
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" ) It's a large critter keeper. This is about 13x8x10h.
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) 3 in total, all approximately the same size and age.
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate No, never.
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined No
8----what is the typical humidity level Varies. I don't have a hygrometer in the tank, but the tank on which it sits has remained between 55 and 75%, well within the toads supposed tolerable range. The only thing is, that tank contains peat/sphagnum substrate which holds moisture. The QT tank they were currently in is barebottom. It is possible that even with a water dish, they weren't able to stay hydrated enough?
9----what temperature is maintained Room temp. A bit on the warm side right now, high 70s during the day with a several degree drop at night, according to my analog thermometer.
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure Nothing. All of my research and questioning here suggested these toads would do well in my climate provided adequate humidity was maintained.
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically) Natural daylight only, from my kitchen window. Enough to maintain the plants, not enough to heat the tank.
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc) three water changes in the dish for the week or so I had them. One involved removing the dish entirely due to several fruit flies drowning in it. I wanted to dump them and rinse the dish out. I did this with my tap water, then refilled with RO water. the rest of the water changes were done simply refilling the dish or siphoning water out with a turkey baster to cause less disturbance for the toadlets while they acclimated to my house. I hadn't done a cleaning yet, as I said I only had them a week. I planned to add them to their enclosure today or tomorrow and simply clean out the QT then.
13---what kind of water is used RO water for all.
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific none, barebottom QT
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned QT was sanitized with rubbing alcohol sprayed on, left to dry, and then thoroughly rinsed in my tap water. Then left to dry again, misted with RO when the toads were added.
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric None in QT.
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials The only things in the tank are the water dish and the shipping media for the toads, which I misted heavily to try to keep them damp (they dried out quickly exposed to the air, though)
16---when is the last time the frog ate Presumably when I fed them at 5:30 last night. There were only a few ff when I found them dead. They also could have escaped though, as the keeper has a screen lid they can easily fit through.
17---have you found poop lately Yes, many small black rice grains starting two days after their first feeding.
18---how often is the frog fed upon the death or disappearance of the flies in their QT. I added ff three (I think) times since I received the toads. I saw them eat each time except the last time, when I didn't worry about it and left the house soon after feeding.
19---what size feeder is given drosophila melanogaster from "The Fruit Fly company"
20---what other feeders are used as treats none
21---what is the frog's main food source drosophila melanogaster
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed drosophila melanogaster roam the QT until they die or are eaten.
23---vitamins - what brand and how often none yet
24---calcium - what brand and how often none yet
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time none, I haven't begun dusting their ff yet.
26---approximate age of the frog young? I don't know. I know that Josh's Frogs sells them as juveniles. They were smaller than my thumbnail, so about 1/2" in total length.
27---how long have you owned the frog 1 weekish
28---who cared for the frog before you the breeder, I assume.
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) Never. I have never touched any of the toads. I carefully dumped them from their shipping containers into the tank. They have never touched my skin.
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area medium, I would say. I live alone, I have three dogs, and their tank is in my kitchen, right next to my front door. However until last night, I've been the only one in and out of the apartment. My dogs occasionally enter the kitchen to bark at people outside, but this has not seemed to bother the taods.
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) yes, they died in QT.
-----for how long about a week.
32---has the frog been treated with any medication: none
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

Okay, I hope that all helps lol. I'm beginning to wonder if the humidity difference in their QT was much greater than that in the main tank below them. With less water retaining media, this seems likely. What I don't understand is why they wouldn't simply hang out in the water dish if that was the case.

One thing I did notice, which just occurred to me might be abnormal - one of them, the larger presumed male, his "chin" was always beating really fast. I didn't think anything of it - he was doing it since they arrived. Only stopped that I was watching when they ate, then resumed shortly after. I only noticed the one toad doing it though.

Another thing which you may or may not know, Paul: I use this same QT for my fish. It recently did contain some sick fish, however it has been dry for several weeks, and I know what killed the fish. There is no reason the rubbing alcohol which I used to sanitize the tank would not have killed off what killed the fish (mycobacteriosis from aquatic strains of mycobacterium, most likely mycobacterium marinum). Rubbing alcohol is commonly used to eradicate mycobacterium and is one of a very few cleaners that will in fact kill it.

For my hopeful future toads, I'm considering getting a very small kritter keeper and putting it inside the actual enclosure, rather than on top, to hopefully maintain a better humidity. Since these guys are so tiny on purchase, I would think a small 6x6 enclosure would be suitable for a few weeks to make sure they are eating and pooping regularly. What are your thoughts on this?

[LilyPad]

My initial thoughts would be a humidity issue. We will be able to analyze things better once the questions are filled out. I'm sorry for your loss That's hard.

[junebug]

I did fill out the questions...

[Mentat]

I'm very sorry for the toadlets death . If you seriously suspect Mycobacterium marinum or it was identified by test in your house, throw away anything related to it. The risk to pets and human health is not worth trying to clean it .

Have you read the care article: Frog Forum - Bumble Bee Walking Toad - Melanophryniscus stelzneri (Weyenbergh, 1875) - Care and Breeding and the care info at Josh's website?

Now to next steps. In the future use 10% bleach solution (can apply with soaked scrub sponge) for 10 min contact, followed by rinse and treating with 4X dechlorinator solution followed by another rinse. Then let air dry for a night. Do wear eye protection, gloves, and old clothes when using bleach.

RO water is a big no-no with frogs/toads unless used to mist enclosure only. It will cause a similar effect to using distilled water and draw out valuable minerals and vitamins from toad's body into the water. Use tap dechlorinated with Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize. More on water in here: http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...hing-else.html.

Toadlets same as froglets can dehydrate rather fast. For that reason, it's recommended their substrate be damp (dechlorinated tap) unprinted paper towels layered 4 thick and changed every 1-2 days depending on how many toads and enclosure size. The water dish should be cleaned in hot water and refilled daily with dechlorinated tap. Once toadlets are 4 weeks old then can use regular substrate (ABG soil for planted tanks or shredded coco for otherwise.

If toads are in the kitchen; ensure they are far from sink area to avoid any detergents/chemicals accidentally splashing into their enclosure. Hope this helps and good luck !

[LilyPad]

So weird, I see them filled out on my phone but only a pic on the computer.

[deranged chipmunk]

Oh June, so sorry for your loss. in reading through this thread, it definitely sounds to me like a humidity issue. And yes, they can dehydrate extremely quickly, especially when they are young.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Lija]

Lots of advise given already, im not going repeat any. Except. Yes it was def. humidity issue and severe stress - have you covered all 4 sides of the enclosure, did they have space to hide, were there enough space for everybody? Add to that RO water and you have disaster unfortunately, very sorry for what happened.

Now m. Marinum. I dont think you know what you are talking about. Yes you do dispose absolutely everything that might have been contaminated. Everything! There is no guarantees, nothing that kills it with 100% guarantee. Alcohol is used sometimes, but it gives you no more then 80%. You euthanize all frogs and animals that might have been in contact, you not just dispose everything you burn it before doing it. You do not joke with m marinum, it is zoonotic bacteria that can be devastating to both humans and animals. Unfortunately i know too well what is that.


Having said that we will help you if you decide to get more frogs, step by step.

[junebug]

Oh June, so sorry for your loss. in reading through this thread, it definitely sounds to me like a humidity issue. And yes, they can dehydrate extremely quickly, especially when they are young.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

Thanks Bill. I'm pretty bummed about it. I thought I was being extra careful, but apparently that wasn't enough. If I'm able to get more toads from Josh's Frogs, they are just going to go straight into the tank rather than QT. The toad keeper there has had fecal tests done on the toads and everything came back clean. It's good enough for me, as long as the toads come from a trusted source. Their toad keeper is supposedly reviewing photos of my setup to be sure but it looks like they are willing to send 3 more, give me another shot lol.

And, everyone, while I much appreciate your advice regarding the illness from my fish tanks, I do know what I'm talking about. Not only did I do months of research and speak to many others who have experienced the same issue with their fish, but I went on the advice from my aquatic vet (along with that of leading researchers in mycobacteria). I do know how to sterilize it from my tanks. Frankly the only reason I mentioned it at all was due to the potential issue with the sterilization method affecting the toads, but as I said, it is not likely an issue since rubbing alcohol leaves no residue when it dries. That being said, I will repeat: mycobacterium can live for approximately 30 days on surfaces. This particular critter keeper has been dry for over a month. That plus sterilization with rubbing alcohol will have taken care of any latent bacteria.

Honestly, I know you all mean well, but I won't be discussing mycobacterium in regards to my toads anymore.

[LilyPad]

Quarantine is still important, especially with babies. That way, if there is an illness, you wont have to rip apart your entire viv. In a viv with plants and substrate, it will be really hard to monitor exactly how much they're eating/pooping. It may be beneficial to set up a new qt tank and monitor the temps/humidity until you get the hang of exactly how often you should be misting. Basically setting it up as if there were frogs in it for a week before you get them and keeping a close eye on things. If you need to get a second digital hygro/thermometer, it's worth it. Beats spending money on toads that might die without it.

[junebug]

New hygrometer is already ordered It should be here tomorrow, actually.

If I see any issues, I plan to get a very small critter keeper and actually keep it inside the viv. That way humidity will remain somewhat constant.

I should be clear; if they send me new toads, it is on the condition that I place them directly into appropriate housing, aka the viv I sent pictures of. I don't intend to lie to the company. If they are willing to send me new toads, I will do what I said I'd do and place them into the tank.

[Lija]

I should be clear too and i will summarize what we were talking here.
- You came here to figure out why you lost your frogs and asking to help you to point things so if you ever get more frogs they wont go the same route.
- lots of knowledgeable people responded giving you an excellent advise and pointed what exactly was a problem and what you need to do
- you disregarded most of what you've been told and tried to defend why were you were doing the way you were.

Naturally certain questions are coming up.....

Now , yes it most likely was your fault frogs died, yes you should have done things differently and yes stuff happens and that is how we learn sometimes. It has happened to everyone here, me included, nobody's blaming you for that.

The problem though that you are planning on carry on doing what you please despite the advise you were given. And yes you quarantine newly purchased frogs. There is a proper protocol of doing so, that you were advised on.


Now m. Marinum. If the data you are talking about came from your vet, you need to change a vet, but you may do as you please of course.
But it will survive well past 30 days and no there are no disinfectants that kills it with 100% guarantee.
Just fyi there are multiple cases reported of m marinum isolated in bearded dragons, snakes, other species and humans. One of the cases that come to mind right now was bearded dragons were kept in old fish tanks that were not in use for 10 years.

So Ill repeat again, it is zoonotic bacteria, one of the most resistant ones, if it was diagnosed, you need to properly dispose everything that was in contact by burning it before throwing it away to minimize environmental risks of releasing in a landfills and further on, as well as health risks of workers who may come into contact with it.
It is dangerous for you too, granted most cases in human are presenting as very difficult to treat skin granulomas,but it can be worse be then that. Your sources of information were obviously mistaken.

I hope you think about and carry with dealing with it, if not for your frog health but for your own and those around you.