False Tomato Frog: "blisters"? on upper eyelids & around nostrils

[Tomato Frog]

So here is the story from the beginning.

I work at a pet shop, on June 1st, 2014 a small tomato frog was shipped to us, he was about the size of a quarter, I found an image online of the size he was when he came in: http://www.frogforum.net/attachments...ies062912a.jpg
Due to a shipping order error we had recently received too many reptiles to house all occupants in separate reptile showcases, so he was placed inside a case, inside a small critter keeper (9" L x 6" W x 6.5” H) http://petca.imageg.net/PETNA_36/pim...n_t300x300.jpg with a repti rock water dish, a fake plastic plant, and an inch of coconut fiber substrate.

Nearing the end of July, due to over misting, the coconut fiber had turned to mud, and he was switched to repti bark, we were then advised to stop misting him. Shortly thereafter I noticed that his upper eyelids and around his nostrils had started to bubble and go milky grey, they also appeared to start receding, which I noted and brought to the attention of management. After a week nothing had been done, so I took him out and showed his condition to a manager. Upon seeing him I was told I could have him if I wanted to take care of him, and I immediately took up the offer and brought him home that day.

Now, I am a first time frog owner, aside from the wild ones I used to catch when I was younger, this is ALL new to me, feeding, lighting, temperature, vitamin/mineral supplementation, water conditioning, handling, terrarium set up/placement, and his problems. I’ve read through postings on this forum, magazine articles, and care guides, but there are too many differing opinions. What do I actually need to do to make sure he is happy/healthy? I worry I will make a mistake that will end up harming him and just wish to do the best I can for the little guy. <3

I also hand feed him, and I’m pretty sure he looks forward to it. Every time I come close to the terrarium now, he blinks, turns to look at me, and waits for me to offer him crickets. Sometimes he even gets over-enthusiastic and will shoot his tongue out b4 I even put my hand in to offer him a cricket, he has never once refused a cricket offered to him in this way and he doesn’t seem to show any signs of fear (tucking head, puffing up, or closing eyes) unless I loom over him; I always bring my hand towards him from his level and from in front of him so he can see me coming, I just personally feel he is less stressed by my presence now that he associates me with food.

I set up a 5 gallon acrylic enclosure with a mesh lid: http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/04...05_500X500.jpg
filled the bottom with coconut fiber and green moss, then put in a water dish and misted everything. I also bought thermometer/hydrometer and a small zoo med heating pad. For the first 4 days I had the heating pad under the enclosure, but it was so warm that the fiber over it was dry by the end of the day and I was having to mist several times a day to keep it moist, so I switched the heat pad to the side and it seems to be working well to keep the temp at 75. I also bought a moonlight night 60W bulb, but I think I will return it as the heat pad seems to be sufficient.

I do realize that the minimum enclosure size is a 10 gal, and I even have a 30 gal aquarium I am hoping to move him into a bit later on, but I thought having him in the 5 gal was better for me to monitor any changes in his actions/condition. I gave him a week to acclimatize to the new surroundings and thought that maybe he would start to recover, with me giving him (to my knowledge) better care than he was provided at work, but in the past 2 days I have noticed that his nose has now started to show greying, and his already existing injuries also seem to have gotten more raw and inflamed. Though his condition has deteriorated slightly I do think he feels at least happier since I brought him home, as he sang for me the second night I had him, I was under the impression that they only really sang if conditions were right, though I may be wrong, I am not sure.

1. Size of enclosure

• Before: He was kept in a small critter keeper (9" L x 6" W x 6.5” H) up until Saturday August 23rd, when I took him home.
• Now: He is currently in a 5 gallon acrylic enclosure with a mesh lid

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences

• He has always been the only frog in his enclosure.

3. Humidity

• Then: I am unsure what his exact Humidity was, but me being the only employee misting him at work my guess is it was quite a bit lower..
• Now: Predominantly 80s but it fluctuates between 70 and 90 throughout the day

4. Temperature

• Then: I am unsure of the exact temp’ his container was not directly under the lights so I think it was a bit cooler than it should have been.
• Now: Around 75 give or take a few degrees throughout the day

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish

• Then: He was being misted and his water dish was filled with water that had been treated with "ReptiSafe Water Conditioner” by Zoo Med.
• Now: I am using “Top Fin water conditioner” for both misting and soaking water.

6. Materials used for substrate

• Then: His first 2 months he was on daily misted coconut fibre, his third month was spent on mostly dry Repti Bark by Zoo Med. (He was also fed on this).
• Now: He is on moist coconut fibre, and green moss by All Living Things.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.

• Then: He had a fake plastic plant (easily bent and without and sharp protrusions) and a zoo med water dish in with him, these were both washed using the cleaning product “watchdog” and then thoroughly rinsed. His original coconut fibre was mixed with ReptiSafe conditioned water before they switched him to the bark chips.
• Now: He is on moist coconut fibre and moss, I mist his enclosure daily. So far I have no other decorations in his enclosure other than the water dish.

8. Main food source

• Crickets

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)

• Then: Between 3 and 8 small cal/Vit.D3 dusted crickets every morning (to the best of my knowledge).
• Now: I have only had him for 10 days, and thought he is fed 4 sm crickets daily, I am only giving him Cal/Vit.D3 dusted crickets every other day.

10. Lighting

• Then: UVA and florescent daylight bulbs during the day, and an infrared light at night.
• Now: He has a heating pad for day/night warmth, and regular desk lamp for the 12 hour light cycle.

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure

• Then: UVA, florescent daylight, and infrared at night.
• Now: A heating pad for day/night warmth, and regular desk lamp that gives off little to no heat, I use it solely for lighting.

12. When is the last time he/she ate

• He ate just a few hours ago. Throughout his time at the pet shop, and now at my house, he has been a very healthy eater.

13. Have you found poop lately

• Four times since bringing him home.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure


I have a few more images to upload of enclosure and the differences between his injuries when I brought him home and now, but for some reason it will not allow me to upload any more photos at the moment :S Oh and just to be clear, as I do not yet have a hide for him I do not shine the lamp directly in his terrarium, I just tilt it up and light the enclosure with ambient light.

15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.

• He looks perfectly healthy with the exception of the milky grey bubbles above his eyes and around his nostrils, (and since getting him, a greying spot on his nose). The closest thing I can use to compare the degradation of his eyelids to, would be fin rot.

16. How old is the frog

• He was roughly the size of a quarter when he first came to the store; June 1st, so three months ago now.. but I don’t know how old he was when he got there.

17. How long have you owned him/her

• 10 days (Since Saturday, August 23rd)

18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred

• Unknown

19. Frog food - how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats

• He has only ever eaten calcium powder with vit.D3 dusted crickets.

20. How often the frog is handled

• Then: Little to none most of his time at the pet store was spent in the critter keeper and we only opened it to feed and water him in the morning and refill his water at night.
• Now: I have picked him up to bring home and to put in his new enclosure, after that once to take pictures to post here. (I always wet my hands first).

21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area

• Then: I would say high traffic before, but seeing as he was in a critter keeper in the glass showcase at the store he likely was hardly bothered be any of the customers walking by.
• Now: he is off to the side in the living room, I guess it’s kind of medium traffic.

22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

• Then: He had little maintenance while living at the pet store, his water was always changed once in the morning and topped up at night daily.
• Now: Since getting him home I have been misting his enclosure and changing his water once a day, removing wast when I see it, and once every few days I have “tilled" the substrate while he was in his water dish.

Basically my questions are:
Do you think the previous enclosure was the reason for his injuries?
Is my set up okay for this little guy?
Do you think something like Melafix or Pimafix soaks would be beneficial?
How old would you guess he is? (If the pictures helped at all)
How often and how many crickets should I feed him a day at this age..
How many crickets should be dusted out of the crickets offered?
Does anybody have any suggestions for what the cause of his injuries were, or anything I could do to reverse or fix them?

Any extra tips on tomato frogs would also be greatly appreciated, and thanks in advance for the help!

- Dani

[Lija]

So sorry nobody replied yet.
I dont have experience with tomato frogs, so i cant comment on husbandry other then general knowledge. Bark and moss are impaction hazard, you better off with just exo earth or similar.

I will cover vet part.

Yes melafix is what you should be using. You need to place him in quarantine enclosure on wet papertowels changed daily. 3-4 sides of the enclosure covered, put in a plant, water bowl. The idea is whatever you put in has to be easy to disinfect and it also has to create as stress free environment as possible. Do a bath with melafix, you can use it to spray enclosure and to wet papertowels. Water level in a bath no higher then frogs chin.
That doesnt look bad, but you need to get it treated. Keep him in a bit less humidity, at about 70 it will help healing. Get flamazine ( silver sulfadiazine) cream, use it on wounds 2x day., careful not to put it on a eye, use q tip. Watch it if no better within a week you need systemic antibiotics.
So it would make sense for you to research vets in your area who treat frogs. You will need to get his poop tested as a normal quarantine procedure anyway.

[Mentat]

Lija gave you great advice, from pics it looks like that eyelid infection has not resolved yet. Melafix fish med works nicely with frogs and can actually be mixed with Pimafix to help prevent a following fungal problem. Read and mix them according to the actual bottle you have since both meds come in various concentrations that vary up to 10X. How is frog doing? Any improvements? Try and get some night crawlers (not dyed from local bait shop) and add them to frog's diet. They are highly nutritious and can be cut from pointy end if too long .

[Tomato Frog]

Oh thank you for the info Lija! I've been so worried for him, there isn't actually an exotics vet near me so I'm happy for any help.


I’ve already adjusted the humidity, but I have a few questions regarding your suggestions before I do anything else:


- First off, when you say 3 - 4 sides covered, do you mean by internal decor, or by external, so as not to let light in?
- Would his current 5 gal be suitable to keep him in while he recovers if I just switch the substrate to paper towel?
- Is there any type of paper towel I should use, or is anything okay? I currently have some white "sponge towels" that I could use if they are sufficient?
- Should I just avoid using the silver sulfadiazine on his eyelids? Because if it's bad for his eyes I would worry he would move and get it into them.. he also wipes his face with his hands every once in a while, (I think it's a shedding thing), so should I worry about him ingesting some too? .. :S
- I'm going in to work tomorrow, so I'll pick up the melafix then, do you think the API brand is good?
- Also do you have any suggestions on where I might look for the silver sulfadiazine? Would it be in a pharmacy?
- Would (unpainted) plastic containers, or tupperware make good hides for the QT? I just don't have any plants or decor yet, but I have plenty of empty containers.
- Should I just follow the mixing directions for fish treatment with the melafix, or are there different mixing ratios for frogs?
- And just to be clear, should I leave only water in his soaking dish, and give him two 20min a day soaks in a separate dish? Or should I leave the soaking dish with treated water in it 24/7 and just change it daily like with regular conditioned water?


Okay I think that is about it for questions, and thanks again for helping me out! Pekoe and I really appreciate it

[Tomato Frog]

Hey Mentat,
Pekoe is doing well (with the exception of the initial issue) his appetite is good and he is active and alert at night. He even shed last night, though he ate some coco fiber along with the skin.. it was a fair clump.. at least 2 crickets worth, so I was a bit concerned with that, but he still seems to be doing okay at least.
He also seems happy, but as I have not yet started the treatments, I can't comment on the healing of his injuries. I plan on starting treatment tomorrow when I get back from work with the melafix.

I was curious, can I use night crawlers from my back yard, seeing as we do not use chemicals on the lawn, or would that still be unsafe? I read somewhere that night crawlers are less likely to carry harmful parasites.

Also I have been feeding him 4 md-sm crickets a day.. but he ALWAYS seems hungry all day.. should I feed him more per day? He makes me feel like I'm starving him!

[Mentat]

Here are few answers; Lija might add more later. Good luck !

...

- First off, when you say 3 - 4 sides covered, do you mean by internal decor, or by external, so as not to let light in?
Aquarium background paper or any paper you like applied on the outside to help reduce frog's stress.

- Would his current 5 gal be suitable to keep him in while he recovers if I just switch the substrate to paper towel?
What is the frog's length from snout to vent?

- Is there any type of paper towel I should use, or is anything okay? I currently have some white "sponge towels" that I could use if they are sufficient?
Plain white unprinted paper towel.

- Should I just avoid using the silver sulfadiazine on his eyelids? Because if it's bad for his eyes I would worry he would move and get it into them.. he also wipes his face with his hands every once in a while, (I think it's a shedding thing), so should I worry about him ingesting some too? .. :S
Don't worry, just apply a bit with q-tip as Lija suggested.

- I'm going in to work tomorrow, so I'll pick up the melafix then, do you think the API brand is good?
Melafix is made by API.

- Also do you have any suggestions on where I might look for the silver sulfadiazineWould it be in a pharmacy?
Pharmacy or first aid section of large department store.

- Would (unpainted) plastic containers, or tupperware make good hides for the QT? I just don't have any plants or decor yet, but I have plenty of empty containers.
You can try something opaque, or a piece of cork slab or new clean clay pot on it's side.

- Should I just follow the mixing directions for fish treatment with the melafix, or are there different mixing ratios for frogs?
Follow label mixing directions. You can pre-made a gallon of solution, store in a dark area (closed cabinet) and use as needed.

- And just to be clear, should I leave only water in his soaking dish, and give him two 20min a day soaks in a separate dish? Or should I leave the soaking dish with treated water in it 24/7 and just change it daily like with regular conditioned water?
Use Melafix solution to damp substrate paper towels and in soaking dish. Continue daily soaks too and can use eye dropper to apply Melafix solution to eye area during soak...

I was curious, can I use night crawlers from my back yard, seeing as we do not use chemicals on the lawn, or would that still be unsafe? I read somewhere that night crawlers are less likely to carry harmful parasites.
That is fine if your neighbors are far away.

Also I have been feeding him 4 md-sm crickets a day.. but he ALWAYS seems hungry all day.. should I feed him more per day? He makes me feel like I'm starving him!

Feed until frog is satiated, it need nutrients to heal. Crickets should be sized smaller than distance between frog's eyes and fed a gut load of carrots, lettuce, and cherios 24-48 hours before feeding frog.

[Tomato Frog]

He is 2.5", when I brought him home I think he was closer to 2", I did notice for the first few days home he would bump up against the tank, but he now just hops around without running into the sides much at all.
The reason why I am unsure of how much to feed is because I see a lot of people saying feed as much as he will eat in 15 min, or over night, but I feed him throughout the day because I just personally think it can't be all that healthy for him to stuff himself in the morning and then go hungry the rest of the day.. does that make sense? I mean in the wild frogs and toads do not eat that much in so short a time.. (not unless they find an ant hill) so how can that be healthy for them.. maybe I'm just being a bit over concerned? I just know from experience with myself and from working with other animals, that feeding lass more frequently is way better than lots at once.

Oh and I did start the melafix treatment, he seems to like it, the first night I switched him to the paper towel and put him in the melafix to soak he literally sat in it for longer than 4.5 hours straight and only hopped out when I offered him a cricket. I have also been misting him directly with the mixture to make sure his wounds are covered as well.
Tonight is his third night of treatment and he has already been soaking for over an hour, and though his sores are still grey, the swelling has already started to go down.
Here are some pics of him in his new set up:
and there is a back ground now covering 5 of the 6 sides of his enclosure, I just took it down so I had better lighting for the pics.

[Mentat]

If swelling is going down already that is very good news . Your feeding method might work for you; but not all owners can feed a frog throughout the day. I feed darts once and the adult bigger frogs get a meal every couple days and they are all fine and healthy. That happens in nature too since food is not available for hunting all the time .

[Tomato Frog]

Update on Pekoe.
his injuries appear to be s-l-o-w-l-y getting a bit of orangey yellow back, but they have not healed to the degree I was hoping for within the week of treatments, they almost seem to now be at a stand still, AND he has not passed any feces in 4 or 5 days.. when he was on the coconut fiber he was going almost every day, but since feeding more, and changing him to paper towel substrate he has only pooped once.. (still urinating daily though) should I stop feeding him until he goes? I worry he will pop seeing at he has eaten between 30 and 40 small-medium crickets since his last poop.

I have checked him for signs of any new blemishes, and felt him for hard spots, but there doesn't appear to be any new issues as of yet, though I wanted to ask for advice BEFORE anything new comes up, just incase.. better safe than sorry, you know?
I also went to a drug store for the Flamazine and they told me I needed a prescription >.< *gurgle* I am guessing that means I need to pay a vet to see him and prescribe it to me. Now I've got to hope that at least one of the few non-exotics vets in the area would be willing to do that. I really hope I can figure this out :/ I am not giving up on him. <3

Here are some pics I took today:
Attachment 73417Attachment 73418
P.S. I have noticed he has small grey speckles under his chin.. which I read females have.. but the second night I had him he sang, which I thought only males did.. so I was wondering if I am wrong to presume "he" is male?

Thanks again for any insight.

- Dani

[Mentat]

Hi Dani! Can't open the last set of pics to see progress. As long as you do not feel a hard lump on his right side, doubt it's impacted. Toad is pooping less, probably because it's not ingesting substrate with crickets. When it comes to chronic issues, frogs and toads take time to recover from them. Do you have a MD in family or a family MD ? If yes; try and show him the thread and ask nicely for a prescription. Who knows, you might get it .

[Tomato Frog]

Maybe this one will work? it's just a close up showing his face so you can see the injuries:

And that's a good idea, I had thought of asking, but didn't think they would take me seriously.. maybe if I show this thread it will work ^^ thanks for the idea

[Tomato Frog]

Well I went to the health clinic yesterday, and I showed my Nurse Practitioner a picture of Pekoe and explained his condition, as well as the fact that Flamazine could help to heal him.. Sooo she gave me a free sample to use along with some swabs to apply it with . I applied some when I got home, and again twice today, but every time I put it on he wipes his eyes with his hand at least once, and tonight when I put it on I'm pretty sure he did get a bit in his left eye because he started screwing his eyes shut and held them that way for at least a minute. I also noticed that he was starting to shed shortly after I put it on, so rather than letting him eat the skin, I just discarded it so he wouldn't ingest any Flamazine by accident; because it's just a sample it has no label or instructions, so I wasn't sure if it would be safe for him to eat, and figured I'd rather be safe than sorry. I guess I'll give him an extra dusted cricket tonight :P

[andaroo]

What your tomato frog has is nose/eye rub. It has rubbed against the sides of it's enclosure that the friction has worn away part of the eye lids and nose. It will heal over but it will be permanently scared / discolored on the nose and the eye lids, which will never grow back, so the top of the eyeball will always be exposed. They can be fat and lazy and sit there for days, weeks, months on end but sometimes they do get very active and will jump around and rub their face into the side of the enclosure as they don't understand the invisible barrier that's stopping them. The exact same thing happened to one of mine but not as bad as yours. If I see her being energetic I usually feed her a lot of food to get her to settle down lol.