My 2 Cents

[flybyferns]

This is actually a copy of a current post of mine from elsewhere. We were discussing the loss of a frog after a very responsible member tried so hard to save it. I think it's important enough to post here and share:

This is in recognition of the many, many, many highly respected members that provide loving and expert care for their charges.

This is, also, in recognition of the sad things we read about ( the ones that could have been avoided ) , and the need for a better understanding of what these responsibilities are. Recently , I had a friend bring me 2 imitators she owned for 48 hours. "She changed her mind" Sad, very sad.

Here’s my 2 cents on stress ( yes stress) on our wild caught and captive bred frogs. I would really like to spend more time on this ---but my regular ‘responsibilities” are calling me. This is based on my personal experiences. Here are a few , simple, day-to-day things I see – too often ! Having said that, there is so, so, much more that has an impact on why people may or may not be able to care for them properly; well beyond the scope of this, my post. It’s human nature!

What goes into keeping our frogs healthy and ‘stress’ free is “more than what meets the eye.”
One may go to a show, a pet sore, an expo, and buy a frog, having NEVER read one single piece of information regarding its care. “How hard could it be ? It’s just a frog. It’s only $ 6.99. Look !, they have 10 in that tank; I’ll get five. They will keep each other company. “ Then there is the purchase of the enclosure. Yikes $$$ Often, this ends up being the improper size and orientation.

Then, with the very best intentions, there are most of us that buy them and often think our good care will be the end to their struggles? We pour over care sheets and obsess with trying to make things perfect, because we love them. Sadly, the problem only starts here as many sold in the pet trade and expos are anything but healthy. How many time have we read on FF -of a respected member- losing a frog after trying so hard to keep it healthy !!!

Consider the massive amount of other variables that , sadly, lead to their demise.
Add to this list the massive amount of often conflicting information to do so properly! I’m sure I’ve left some out.
Below ....commonly found list of issues:
-Improperly maintained humidity levels
-Poorly or improperly kept water sources
-Improper temperatures
-Improper lighting (day/night cycles, UVA/B when required)
-Wrong choice of suitable and safe substrate (depth, type etc).
-Poor cleaning and disinfecting of the enclosure, substrate, and furnishings
-Inconsistent monitoring of equipment needed to maintain the enclosure
-Improper maintenance and size of feeders
-The improper use of and lack of the use of calcium /nutritional supplements
-Irregular observation of the frog that leads to missing the detection and early signs of stress or (ill health) which delays prompt intervention.
-Lack of prompt intervention by a qualified herp vet.

Here are some ‘scientific ‘articles regard the effect of stress on the health of frogs. I spend an enormous amount of time researching how stress impacts the immune systems of frogs which leads to their ill health.

It’s quite easy to find this information. Often, it can be complicated. Try to enjoy it anyway ! Try to read through. Every time you might read a ‘scientific research article’ you will come away with having learned something new. It’s never wasted time ! If it’s not specific to the topic you intended, simply move on.

Stress in the wild: about the negative effect of temperature changes -article below
<One of the major questions in ecology is how environmental factors influence the dynamics of parasitism and disease in natural populations. A case in point is that environmental factors have been implicated in the emergence of new and more severe amphibian diseases>
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/...al_Ecology.pdf

Stress, over a frog’s lifespan , seems to hsve an impact on their immune system and their overall nutritional status as well. It's not clear how this effect of stress can may make them sick, however. We need to continue to support our passionate scientists! For example, like with humans, stress activates parts of the immune system can which cause inflammation in the body. “Inflammation in the body”; sounds simple, right! It’s not. This is not merely the inflammation ( or swelling) we see if we have an injury. It is related to an inflammatory process in the body that leads to diseases. In humans this would be major diseases like, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer.

Good research articles:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...9564330400354X

http://www.mcdb.lsa.umich.edu/labs/d.../CBP141381.pdf

In captivity, are frogs have to adjust to enormous obstacles from the day when they are born in captivity:

http://link.springer.com/article/10....%3A273?LI=true

Some others:
searched words <“Sources of stress in captive frogs “
Oh ! Thank goodness for the www.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68159106001997

Here is a link to articles on stress, specifically, in captive amphibians… Complements of Google:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...%2C33&as_vis=1

I believe we should all keep trying, and, NEVER underestimate the important impact we ( non-scientists) have on the ongoing knowledge and proper husbandry of our captive friends ! We matter and WE can make a difference !

My mission: I leave the wild ones there and –try very hard - to give the captive bred frogs a great home !

My FF quote :
>But if you tame me,
then we shall meet each other.
To me, you will be unique in all the world.
To you , I shall be unique in all the world.
You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.>

Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Little Prince" chapter 21

Lynn

[Terrarium Supplies]

Lynn, I am very glad you have addressed this. I have made my views on 'stress' very clear.

Something like I would like to cover that comes directly from the source of care: 'the Keeper'

Handling; touching, grasping, or use of the hands, the manner of treating or dealing with an Amphibian thus management and treatment.
- Amphibians as a whole do not like being handled. We Humans are seen as a threat, we are at the top of the food chain and play ignorance to the fact that we desiccate millions of acres of rainforest and Amphibian habitats to feed our carbon footprint - it makes great practice to keep handling down to a minimum and only when deemed completely necessary. When handling is performed, it must be done in a calm and gentle manner.

Positioning; condition with reference to place, location, situation, a place occupied or to be occupied as defined as site or fortified position
- The position of a vivaria is paramount. Although many are not in a position to have the perfect and somewhat ideal 'Amphibian room', some thought and understand must be set aside as to where the vavaria will be in situ. As above, Humans, domesticated pets, sound, vision, vibrations... all account for what is seen as an invasion of privacy, a treat and a warning.

Two very important and often overlooked chapters into captive care and management, as again and to reiterate 'the Keeper'

Best James.M ACITP

[flybyferns]

Thank You , James

[Heatheranne]

Lynn,

This is a fantastic post!

Minimizing stress is key to illness prevention. Stress is created, and not limited to, all of the factors listed. If we can keep our members researching and educating theirselves to proper husbandry while incorporating the minimization of human-causing stressors, our frogs can be happy and healthy.

I too feel that wild caught frogs should be free to continue to thrive where they belong, in their natural habitats in the wild. Their existence is more important than most of us are aware of...biological indicators, food chain, etc. I did a lot of research last year when teaching the local school how and why we should save and protect frogs/toads. I could write about that all day. There are plenty of captive bred frogs in circulation now to enjoy the hobby. It is my opinion that we should maintain and encourage their natural existence where they are meant to be and that we should teach proper husbandry amongst the caretakers and hobbyists of captive bred amphibians. This is key to the survival of the frogs and their health in the captive settings.

Educate yourselves first, plan, and plan some more. Read about the type of amphibian, their husbandry needs, species preferred independent or social needs, common ailments, nutritional requirements. What does it take to make them happy and healthy and how can we provide that? Be sure you can properly provide what your prospective amphibian will need routinely and what they may need for any altered condition or emergency. Read lots of posts, articles, scientific data. Lynn has provided many above. Then, if you can and are willing to provide the time and care that they need, you will be more prepared for your new amphibian.

Thank you, Lynn, for a wonderful and educational post. The article links are great and allow for easy access. This was needed and I hope many of our members here read it.

Remember, no matter where in your frog caring experience you are, there is always room for improvement and science is updating itself everyday. Keep yourself aware of new theories and care techniques, yet remember some good oldies stand true to the test of time.

[deranged chipmunk]

Excellent post Lynn! Most people don't think about the effects stress have on our little amphibian friends. That's the reason i build elaborate setups to mimic their natural environment and most importantly, i never handle my frogs. Sure, i may scoot them out of the way for maintenance, but pick them up? No way. I think that is the biggest mistake most people make. If something looks "off", they are immediately yanking them fron their enclosure and poking and prodding instead of observing.

This post (minus my comment of course..lol) should be a sticky in every subforum on this site. Just so it won't be, can't be missed.

[flybyferns]

Thanks, my friend

[yoshimi]

I agree with all of this. (some of those articles cost money to read, I think.) <deep breath> My toad is wild caught. He was the 2nd I've seen since I moved here 5yrs ago. The 1st was hopped by me into my bf's yard, so I just watched him go about his business. Yeah, we're avid lawn-mowing people, but no one had a mower out right then. Banjo was on sidewalk, hopping across my path towards the street. I know I should have placed him on someone's lawn and gone home. But instead I scooped him up and when we got home, my avatar pic was taken. I try not to handle him too much, but in the beginning I probably did. I feel bad about abducting him, about scaring him, all of the above. That's why his health is so important to me. I've been a hover-mom, in a way. He's fun just to watch. What other pet besides a fish can you say that about? My bf thinks I should let him go in the Spring, but I'm unsure. Once he was in my house, I had the responsibility to care for him, so I hopped on computer and researched and I haven't stopped. Learned (and am learning) so much, and yes, some info is conflicting. I get nervous thinking about him out there on his own, even if that's where he's meant to be. He's almost full grown, but still just a little guy. Or girl, I'm not sure yet. So fragile. It's a tough decision.

I wasn't ever going to post for fear of being reprimanded for abducting him. But, reprimand away. As long as it's constructive. I've found some folks are needlessly jerky (not to me, yet), but most of you have knowledge I feel I can trust.

[Heatheranne]

Yoshimi, I sent you a nice PM .

[yoshimi]

Yoshimi, I sent you a nice PM .

Got it, read it, thank you. I'll always feel guilty on some level, as it's impossible to tell if a frog is "happy" or not. But a guy is giving away the pet toad he's had for 3 years, caught in NH, because he feels he can't care for it properly anymore. I'm hoping that company might make Banjo feel a little better. Even tho they're solitary in nature, when I see pics of toads in captivity, they seem to do everything together. We'll see. I got a big 20 gallon for them. This guy's toad definitely can't be set free, not around here. That just wouldn't be right. And yes, I'm brimming with excitement about the new addition.

[Heatheranne]

No need to feel guilty. We just need to provide the best we can for them .

[kueluck]

Lynn, As always a great post for keepers and would-be keepers of our hoppin' friends.

[flybyferns]

~ bump ~
It's always good to be reminded of how hard we work

[Heatheranne]

A great reminder and important to read!

Thanks, Lynn

[flybyferns]

I'm bumping this as there are lots of new members planning for frog deliveries.

[DigitalPunk]

Wow great read, I had not seen this thread before. Wish I would of before I bought my first frogs

Thank you for all the info and hard work!