Help me set up this tank!

[junebug]

Hi all! I'm new to the forum, and to amphibians in general, and therefore would love a little advice from the experts on the toads I want to keep. Here's the skinny:

I have a ten gallon terrarium, vintage glass with a metal screen mesh lid. I had fish in it and they are no longer, so I really, really want to try something new. So I asked around, did some googling, and found out that Bumblebee toads are A) adorable and B) will be the most tolerant of the type of setup I have available. My apartment has no A/C, so temp control can be an issue. It reaches 90 inside my apartment some days (I generally retreat to my well shaded hammock when this happens). The tank I have, I want to set up with minimal gadgets, so humidifiers, heat lamps, mats, etc, I have to take that all into consideration. This is in part because of where I'll be putting the tank, and in part because I have limited plug space available.

I'm having trouble finding a lot of info on how to care for bumblebee toads, probably because I'm new to this and don't know what search terms to use in google. I asked the reptile specialist at my local shop about them, and he reported that they don't exist. So yeah. Won't be going there.

Anyway! I was hoping to include some live plants, dirt the tank and plant terrestrial moss (if I can source some). I'd like to know anything you all can tell me about these little guys, if you think they will be suitable to my tank (I was probably going to start with three, then get two more if the first three did well), and any specific things they'd like in a setup. I planned to find a tall, drooping grass to plant near a water dish, hopefully to provide them a pocket of moist air, decorate the tank with manzanita wood, possibly some stones, and likely plant anubias or similar plants around as waste eaters/hiding places.

So... yeah. That's all for now! I'll be checking back soon

[frogphibian]

Hi! Welcome!
A 10 gal should be plenty of space for a bumblebee toad. You could actually comfortably house a few in there. Some good sites you could try for care sheets are lllreptile Josh's frogs and there might even be a helpful caresheet in this forum. Personally I haven't had any expiriences with them but I've heard if them. That's pretty crazy that the "reptile expert" has never heard if them even though they go by many different names. 60% humidity is good. While it gets hot in your apartment u would get a reptifigger and turn it in with some cool not cold water and in the winter id use a ceramic heat emitter. If you have any more questions just ask and keep us updated! Hope this helped


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[frogphibian]

Reptifogger* sorry autocorrect strikes again


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[junebug]

I've been reading up on substrate (had to do something while at work today) and it looks like that will be where I need to start. I'd like to use plain pea gravel as a first layer. How thick should this be? I have any number of things available to me, just need to know what to get. I keep fish so I usually have gravel or sand around (not going to put sand in a toad tank though. I feel like that could end in disaster). I'd like to use Miracle Grow Organic Sphagnum moss as my "dirt" layer as I fully plan on using live plants. I also have a large number of oak leaves available to me to use as leaf litter.

I was also googling the water feature of a natural vivarium and the potential issues caused by too much moisture in the base layer of substrate. Would it be better to use a water dish, or leave the water area open to the gravel layer? I'd really rather not get any nasty bacteria in the tank.

I'm sure I'll have dozens of questions. I'm literally a toad virgin LOL. I've been a good girl though, stalking Josh's Frog blog and the LLL reptile site. I did find them, but wanted to check with the experts here as you never know the quality of info you're getting from vendor sources.

I did want to ask, if I can source the toads from a local shop, should/could I deworm them before putting them in their permanent tank? Should I quarantine the second round of little guys before adding them? I'm told frogs and lizards from big box stores tend to have parasites when they come home and I'd really like to keep my toads alive, haha. If I order them online from a reputable breeder, I'm less concerned about the potential for illness, though I will obviously still take care when introducing new animals into the habitat.

[frogphibian]

The best substrate for the animals and plants will be Eco earth. You can put moss in various places to keep up the humidity and def add those leaves they will make it very natural looking. For the water, I'd start with a large bit fairly shallow water bowl then As you've had some expiriences with them you can have fun with a cool water feature. DO NOT buy animals from big box stores trust me on that one if it's a small privately owned one then yes go for it. If your going to order online go for lllreptile as they are great and very reputable. If you get them from a lllreptile and such you should not have to worry about diseases at all. I recommend the reptifogger as when you want some humidity, just turn it but not too much for too long cuz it's a pretty small tank. Of you've got anymore questions just ask I'd be happy to help


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[frogphibian]

And make sure to research which plants will go well with this species. I know a fantastic site that I'll share with you once I find the name.


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[deranged chipmunk]

I've been reading up on substrate (had to do something while at work today) and it looks like that will be where I need to start. I'd like to use plain pea gravel as a first layer. How thick should this be? I have any number of things available to me, just need to know what to get. I keep fish so I usually have gravel or sand around (not going to put sand in a toad tank though. I feel like that could end in disaster). I'd like to use Miracle Grow Organic Sphagnum moss as my "dirt" layer as I fully plan on using live plants. I also have a large number of oak leaves available to me to use as leaf litter.

I was also googling the water feature of a natural vivarium and the potential issues caused by too much moisture in the base layer of substrate. Would it be better to use a water dish, or leave the water area open to the gravel layer? I'd really rather not get any nasty bacteria in the tank.

I'm sure I'll have dozens of questions. I'm literally a toad virgin LOL. I've been a good girl though, stalking Josh's Frog blog and the LLL reptile site. I did find them, but wanted to check with the experts here as you never know the quality of info you're getting from vendor sources.

I did want to ask, if I can source the toads from a local shop, should/could I deworm them before putting them in their permanent tank? Should I quarantine the second round of little guys before adding them? I'm told frogs and lizards from big box stores tend to have parasites when they come home and I'd really like to keep my toads alive, haha. If I order them online from a reputable breeder, I'm less concerned about the potential for illness, though I will obviously still take care when introducing new animals into the habitat.

first and foremost, welcome to the forum!!

i have never kept bumblebee's, so i cannot offer much info on their care, but i did find a caresheet for you (which i am sure you already read) Bumble Bee Toad Care and Breeding | Josh's Frogs How-To Guides for Reptiles & Amphibians

so judging from what i read in the caresheet, a simple drainage layer, like you have planned is the way to go. so to answer your questions, i would use a 2 inch layer of your preferred drainage media (definitely not sand...lol), more if you plan on having an exposed water feature, then a barrier (landscape fabric, fiberglass screening, polyester batting, ect) then your substrate of choice. if you are planning on keeping live plants, then yes, peat moss will work, but, it will stay very soggy. more so than cocfiber.
to address the post above, if you want to keep live plants, then the worst substrate to use is eco earth alone. cocfiber has zero nutritional value for plants. nutrition for them when using a fiber only substrate is from frog waste. and if you have only a few frogs in the tank, the plants may "survive", but they certainly will not flourish. that being said, abg (atlanta botanical gardens) mix would be best for your setup. it drains very well and has essential nutrients for plants.

as far as too much moisture in the drainage layer, hey, you're a fish chick, add this to your weekly water change routine: drain off water from toad tank you can use a water dish, but an open water feature does look more natural. it all depends on what you feel most comfortable with

now let's discuss you last question. yes, big box pet stores have a higher percentage for the chance of having parasites. but guess what, so do the little mom and pop shops. ya know why? they source their animals form the same places also, there's the issue that even mom and pop shops are getting their frogs from larger distributors, so most don't tell you if they are wild caught or captive bred because they don't know. if i were ordering these toad, i would get them from Josh's. plain and simple. they breed them on site. you can't get much closer to the source.

and ALL frogs and toads should be quarantined. doesn't matter when you get them from. qt them for 30 days, minimum. it's much easier to see if they are eating in a qt bin rather than a finished tank. you get to assess their health a lot better when they are in an open environment like that instead of hiding in the tank.

now, the heating and cooling issues. heating is no biggie, you can always place a heat pad on the tank or get a ceramic emitter or heat bulb. cooling, on the other hand is an issue. 90 degrees is in the very highest extreme for these toads, and would probably be pushing things. it would kill most frogs. since you'll be having a open top tank, the ambient air temp will be what the tank temp is. the easiest thing is to run a fan constantly in the room to keep ambient temps below 90. i do not think that they will be able to handle over 90 degree temps for any extended period of time. if you get a prolonged heat wave, you could have serious problems. oh, and to address another post, simply putting cooler water will NOT lower your tank temps. the water will become room temperature very quickly, so if the room is 90, it won't be long before the fog from the fogger is 90. sure, you could try tiny ice cubes or refrigerating the water, but again, just a temp fix and may (i have never seen it work) work for a minute or two. cool mist turns to ambient temps extremely quickly.

that everything? i think so. any other questions, feel free to ask

[junebug]

Thanks so much, Bill!

So oddly, I rarely change water in my fish tanks (I know, but I have a setup that doesn't require it - they are all walstad method tanks and I do very little maintenance). If I do an open water feature, it'll likely not have a pump unless I can get a battery operated one. I was thinking of keeping it fairly shallow and changing/adding water daily. I mean the plants will be using quite a bit of the water, right? So it should stay fairly fresh. Then again, I tend to have the thumb of death when it comes to plants, I can only keep aquatic ones alive.

I think I exaggerated the temp of my apartment lol. Assuming it did get to be upwards of 90 for more than a day, it would be easy enough to take the vivarium outside, or put it in my bedroom which is usually a bit cooler.

I understood from my reading that these particular toads don't like it too humid, so wouldn't a reptifogger sort of... be bad for them? I was planning on misting as needed with a spray bottle - again with live plants, I'd have to do it anyway most likely.

Regarding QT, would a 1-3 gallon critter keeper work well enough? I have two small ones for my fish QTs, along with assorted plastic sterilite tubs, that I could easily sterilize with rubbing alcohol (how I'll be sterilizing this tank after the fish disaster that has forever banned it from holding aquatic pets) to QT the toads. If someone could direct me to a dummy-proof frog QT guide, that would be great

Hmm landscape fabric as a barrier... now let me ask, is the barrier just to keep the nutrient holding substrate from getting into the drainage area? If so, virtually any netted fabric would work, correct?

Okay, now for some nit-picky stuff. I have a ton of plants that are aquatic, semi-aquatic, and can be grown emersed though I currently keep them in fish tanks. The problem I have is that I'm euthanizing a large population of the fish due to a disease outbreak, most likely of a mycobacterium. The bacterium can be transmitted to humans, though it's not especially common (don't worry, I ain't about to get some weird disease lol). My question is, does anyone know if frogs and toads are susceptible to mycobacterium marinum and the other two marine bacterium? Because if so, I just need to go grab some new plants. Not a big deal, I just need to know if it's possible. Basically if it is, I will trash all the "extra" plants and be sure to wear latex gloves whenever I handle the toads until I'm sure my skin isn't going to transmit stuff to them. And I might continue wearing gloves because of the yucky stuff toads get on people's skin lol.

I have a few plants that I really want to include, some of which are theoretically found in the toads' native area. I'd love to have some emersed four leaf clover around whatever water feature I end up with, and umbrella plants along one of the walls. I'm hoping to include some large anubias species (from Africa) as I just find them very attractive in general, and easy to grow emersed. I also REALLY want to include a live moss bed, simply because it's pretty and I hope will keep the toads from getting too wet, as apparently that is detrimental to their health. I have a really nice piece of manzanita burl I'm planning to include, and some red zebra rock (again after sanitizing it from the fish). If ya'all know some other plants that are easy to care for and that I should include, I'd love to know about them. I need plants with minimal light requirements because I just have that much fail with plants sometimes.

Oh, and lastly for now, as a "fish chick " I tend to think of waste in terms of ammonia and nitrogen. So... how does this work in a vivarium? Obviously I will need to clean the tank at some point, but what is a safe way to do this? I don't want to use soap, though I read several places that this is the preferred cleaning method for reptile tanks. IME soap tends to not be great for scaled creatures, so like I said, I'd rather not use it.

Do I need to scrub the wood and rock? The glass? What about feces removal? Is it better to leave the feces in to some point, to act as plant fertilizer? Or should I just remove everything?

[junebug]

This is what I was taking as law when it comes to caring for these toads: (credit to Josh's Frogs site for the quote)

"Temperature and Humidity Requirements of Bumble Bee Toads
Due to the environment form which they inhabit in Paraguay, bumble bee toads can tolerate a wide temperature and humidity range. The secret to keeping your bumble bee toads happy and healthy is to avoid the extremes. Bumble bee toads can tolerate temperatures from 40F to over 90F, but ideally are kept at about room temperature, in the low 70s. In the wild, precipitation and humidity fluctuates widely based on season. Bumble bee toads can handle a wide range of humidity levels, but cannot tolerate a humidity level over 70% or so indefinitely – this has done many a bumble bee toad in. Aim for a humidity level of 50-60%. Routine spraying and a full screen top will aid in providing proper humidity levels. It is important to check the temperature and humidity often, with use of a thermometer and/or hygrometer."

I would say that about 99% of the time, my apartment is within their optimal range, with the rest of the time being in their tolerable range when it comes to temperature. I'm more concerned about humidity, but I think that's something I'll have to learn as I go. I'm going to get a hygrometer type thing before I get the toads, so I'll be able to monitor humidity levels as I get the tank set up. For those who are familiar with the area, I live in San Diego, up in the mountains. Humidity ranges from very dry to what we arid climate dwellers consider completely intolerable. Do I know the actual numbers? No I do not, but I'm sure I can find out.

Also I just realized I never said THANK YOU for the welcomes!

[deranged chipmunk]

Wait, you keep walstad tanks? Ok, you're not just a fish chick, but a planted tank chick, which just made you cooler in my book forget a batter operated pump, bed things happen when batteries corrode, and they eventually would. You can change the water in the tank on a weekly basis.

If you can keep aquatics alive and flourishing, then terretrials should be no issue, just apply the basics of the planted tank to this one

Yes, a fogger would be a big no no with these guys, who prefer low humidity. Hand misting should suffice.

The qt tub size will be fine. But, if they were used to qt fish that had mycobacterium, I would sterilize and then dispose of them. That's a nasty one and can indeed be transferred to frogs. I remember a discussion about it last summer. Just get new ones. A buck for a show box sized one at the dollar store is perfect for a 30 day qt for such small toads.

As long as the anubias can handle the low humidity, they will be fine. A. Coffeefolia or a. Barteri sometimes can deal with 50%ish humidity. The clover should be able to handle it to.

Ammonia from the frog waste is handled almost exactly the way it does in an aquarium. Almost the same bacteria really. The nitrifying and de-nitrifying bacteria that live in your substrate in your planted tanks also live in soil all soils have them. You should always spot clean poo as you see it and you can also employ a cleaner crew. Springtails and Isopods will help keep the Viv clean by munching on decaying matter and frog waste. Your substrate should be good for a couple years. No soap needed. The only time you're going to need to clean the wood and rock are prior to installing it in the tank. A good old fashioned hardscape boil is in your future, remember, 20 minutes minimum




Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[junebug]

Yep, I think that makes me a true fish nerd LOL. So what you're saying is I can get some rolly polies and put them in the tank with the toads? Epic! Haha I should collect some from the log table in my back yard. Or order them from Niles Bio lol. Speaking of Niles Bio, they sell TONS of small critters that can be used as food in fish tanks, and isopods, and centipedes, and any number of other insects and stuff. Would this be a good place to get some quality foods for the toads? I frequently order large quantities of crustaceans from them for some of my more picky fish (I keep many wild type and even a few wild caught species), so it would be easy to add some insects and such to the orders. Just hopefully ones that are small enough that the toads can still eat them. Niles Biological, Inc. - Owl Pellets and Biological Supplies

I know how to get rid of mycobacterium on my stuff. Had to learn because yeah, icky sick fish. I'm going to let the tank sit dry for two months, just in case that's what the fish in it had, after doing a bleach rinse, then spray daily with rubbing alcohol. I guess that means I'll just toss the plants, though, as trying to sterilize them properly generally kills them. That's okay, though, I can get more. And if I get paranoid, I can always just get a new tank lol. I'm considering doing that with one of the fish tanks that was infected, just to be extra sure.

I will probably have to just rinse the wood. It has never been in a fish tank, so at least I don't have to worry about that, but I'd like to get rid of any soft spots on it. I can bake it to sterilize it if needed, but it won't fit in any of my pots.

Edit: Nile Bio also sells earthworms and redworms. Would these be a good addition to the tank, to help with soil aeration and waste decomp?

[deranged chipmunk]

You can get micro fauna from anywhere you like. Field collected is ok. I field collect Isopods too, but I let a few generations grow in my culture before I add them to the Viv. The springtails are your main cleaners and the toads will probably munch on them as well, so you should probably keep a culture of them around as well.

I am not a big fan of worms in a Viv. Yes, they do good in a garden, but in a Viv, if one dies, you have no idea and in the meantime, you have ammonia levels going through the roof. I use some organic potting soil in my tanks and I get a worm here, a worm there and I just pull them as I see then and add them to my container gardens

I figured you knew what to do as far as mycobacterium goes. But as a habit, always go with too much info, so please don't take it as an insult.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[junebug]

Eww, yeah, I didn't think about what happens if you get a dead worm in a terrarium. Yuck! (And don't worry about offending me with mycos talk. Lots of people don't know how to deal with it, but I have friends who had major infestations in their betta setups. Rubbing alcohol is known to kill it. Also it can only live on dry surfaces for 30 days, but I tend to go longer with sterilization combined just to be sure now that I suspect I have it in my tanks.)

Where on earth do I buy springtails? I thought those were aquatic critters :/ I've never seen any other kind lol. Then again, not knowing, I never bothered to look.

I am so jealous by the way! A friend from another site is going to the reptile show in SD today and I can't go

[deranged chipmunk]

You can springtails from Josh's when you order your toads they are pretty inexpensive and very easy and cheap to culture, which is good because you'll have to replenish them from time to time.
I forgot you were in the San Diego area. A buddy of mine lives out there. LLL reptile has retail stores in your area. I know for a fact they carry springs, I have gotten them from them before. They might even be able to help you out with the toads as well. And they will be able to tell you whether they are wc or cb. Awesome folks they are. They are my go to when ordering online.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[junebug]

Ooooh I just talked to a guy at one of the retail stores in SD. Not only do they have all the good foods and such, but they carry the toads as well! They're out of stock right now, waiting for the adults in their warehouse to breed. Goooo I'm excited! If I can get them locally, it'll be less stressful on the poor little guys getting them home and into their tank

Thanks for letting me know about the retail stores. I hadn't found that section on their website yet, as their contact us page is in a crazy weird place.

[deranged chipmunk]

No problem! Glad you got to talk to them and see the place. Now I'M jealous!! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[junebug]

Haven't seen it yet. Perhaps when I do, I'll take pictures for you :P LOL.

[junebug]

Upon further discussion with the folks at LLL reptile, it seems that my tank will be safe for toads! I confirmed with him that bleach and rubbing alcohol are a good way to go for sanitizing the tank, especially if I let it dry for a while to weaken any residual bacteria. Used properly these shouldn't hurt the toads, so I'll just make sure to give everything a good rinse before adding any toads into the tank.

The guy I talked to also confirmed that my plan for the tank is a good one: pea gravel, barrier of some sort, peat moss, and a live moss patches to keep the toads from sticking to the soil layer are exactly how he proposed to set the tank up (this makes me happy). A built-in water feature is, he claims, the best way to go, as it makes draining the soil easier. He suggested that in SoCal where I live, I'll be doing a lot more refilling than I will draining, but I think the occasional water change will still be in order. The good news is, I almost always have RO water around for the fish I keep, so I'll use that in the toad tank instead of my tap water, which is well water, very hard and high in mineral content, and not in a good way.

I'll probably be visiting a store in the next few weeks to get some of the supplies to start me off, and hopefully be able to find out if/when they will have the toads.

[deranged chipmunk]

See that? You already had things worked out. You didn't even need help! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[junebug]

Eh, second opinions never hurt, especially when literally the only info available is from retailers lol. I don't know how it is with reptiles and amphibians, but I know with fish, one should NEVER trust a petstore employee's advice without doing the proper research first