Introduction and call for help

[patiomom]

Hi, I am patiomom -- apologies in advance for how long this is. I've been reading posts and searching for answers and decided to join this forum at first in search of help (and hopefully in the longterm as a parent of thriving frogs). I and my two kids are relatively new "parents" to two white's tree frogs. We got the first one (Mr. Sleepy Head or "MiSH" for short) about two weeks ago and frankly I feel like we got bad set up info from the little pet shop where we got him. They gave me a ground cover that was mix of peat moss and mulch, a fish-tank type terrarium, and a 75 watt basking light. But at least the frog ate a few crickets back then. We then went to a different place that seemed to know more -- ended up betting an 18x18x24 tall terrarium, some silk plants, climbing stuff, a bigger (but still shallow) water bowl/pond, etc. We also got another white's tree frog ("Jumpy"). Again, not sure we got great advice because I didn't know about slowly introducing the two frogs -- just put them in together. Still, they seem ok with each other -- will do their own thing but sometimes hang out together on the end edge of their water area (we even got a photo of them looking like they were holding hands).

The issue is, MiSH does not seem to be eating. We are feeding them small crickets that we gutload in a critter keeper. It has been several days since he last ate -- at least five (and even then I think he only ate 1 cricket). He is pooping and peeing though. He was fairly chubby when we got him so he isn't too skinny yet but... I'm worried. He seems lethargic to me, but I don't really watch him at night when he'd be more active. Jumpy is eating like a champ. He will hunt and pounce and snatch the crickets. The recent time I saw MiSH eat, the cricket was RIGHT in front of him. Today I decided to bring MiSH out to try to give him a chance to eat without Jumpy getting more than his fair share. He is now sitting in an empty critter keeper -- empty but for him and a few crickets -- some in a small glass dish (read about this on a forum somewhere) and others just loose. One cricket is currently SITTING ON HIS HEAD. He hasn't moved since I put him in. When I did put him in, he moved around in my hand, but again is now just sitting. I have to admit I am not too used to holding a frog, but he seemed to feel a little different today to me... less healthy somehow.

Their terrrarium is about 75 degrees F on the "cool" side. On the other side we have a red light that we keep on 24/7 now (was afraid they were getting too cold at night so changed a white bulb that was on 12 hours to a red bulb and now keep it on all night. We also have a UVB light on for 12 hours during the day. Humiidity is at about 70 percent, down to maybe 60 overnight and obviously much higher right after we mist. He has a fake cork-like material on the back of the terrarium, the other sides are glass.

I am afraid we are losing MiSH. The kids and I are going away for 5 days and we will need to transport them to their dad and stepmom for caretaking while we are away... so more stress and change (couldn't find anyone to come in to care for them). I am almost wondering if something was up even when we got him -- thus his "Mr. Sleepy Head" name -- he wasn't too active (especially compared to his new mate "Jumpy" who is also named for his behavior). If it matters -- MiSH is slightly bigger than Jumpy - maybe the same size inches wise, but MiSH was always a little more rotund.

I've heard of force feeding them -- but honestly, I'm afraid I'd hurt him??

HELP for MiSH please?

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF ! Myself do not keep White's; but will try to help. First you need to read this: Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea. As you see; need to bring the temperature up and provide a basking spot with 85F during the day. Can use a day light for that or and/or a low UV type bulb (2-5 tropical, not desert). Night temps can drop to 75F or so.

Your frog could be sick or very stressed out . Couple things you can do is to prepare a hospital like enclosure and separate from other frog to try and prevent second one getting sick. These two frogs should not have been mixed without proper quarantine. Also, could take frog to herp vet or at least get a fecal analysis done (Arav and Herp Vet Connection). If your frog has protozoan or worm parasites a vet prescription will be required.

A bath in a solution of 10% unflavored Pedialyte or similar baby electrolyte and 90% 80F dechlorinated tap for 20 minutes can help rehydrate and energize frog to get it eating again. Can use a small critter keeper or plastic bowl with holed up top filled to frogs chin level for the bath. Use a towel to drape over it and help retain heat. When done, return frog to enclosure and try feeding it gut loaded (carrots, lettuce, and cherios cereal for 24-48 hours) crickets that are sized same as distance between frogs eyes.

Need to supplement the crickets with CA and vitamins for both frogs, more info on that in here: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html. Also, dusting the sick frog's food with Fluker's Repta Boost will help it recover and get some needed nutrient into it. Try dusting it's food with it for a week once eating. Force feeding can be stressful to both frog and yourself. If it get's to that; search in YouTube for videos on how to and dust food with Repta Boost.

Answering the below posted questions will help us identify any other issues going on. Thanks and good luck !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”
The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)


by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[Lija]

In addition to these question i would really would like to see pic of the frogs and their enclosure.

[patiomom]

Thanks for your reply - here are the answers to your questions where I can
:
1. Size of enclosure -- 18x18x24
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences -- 2 whites tree frogs, about 2" long
3. Humidity -- ranges from 60-80 percent depending on recent spritzing, probably averages a little under 70%
4. Temperature -- cool side is about 75 degrees, on sight with lamp and heating pad, probably is about 80-85 degrees
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish -- bottled spring water
6. Materials used for substrate -- started with a mix of peat moss and mulch, replacing with coco fiber. Also have some moss on the cool side around water.
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. -- They are currently on a mix we got from pet store that was recommended which is peat moss and mulch. but I have since heard that is bad and got coco fiber to replace -- have not done it yet as did not want to disrupt him but will when I clean it. We have a silk vining plant that goes up the wall, frogs like to climb and hide in that. Also a silk lower plant with big leaves, they often also hang out under those leaves. Have a driftwood piece about 8" tall leaning against one wall; they don't use it to climb so much as sometimes sit under it. Have two faux bamboo rods leaning from floor to top of terrarium which they sometimes hang out on. Back of terrarium has molded material that is kind of cork like. sides and front are just glass.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. -- rinsed with spring water
8. Main food source -- small crickets gutloaded with feed purchased at store. No powder yet but planned to get it.
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) none yet
10. Lighting -- one UVB light over back of terrarium, on 12 hours/off 12 hours. Had used a white basking light, also on 12/off 12, but recently switched to red light that is on 24 hours now for heat. (also have a heating pad under hot area of terrarium but not sure it really is doing much)
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure -- red lamp 24 hours and heating pad (see #10)
12. When is the last time he/she ate -- Saturday (today is thursday); if he ate otherwise, we didn't see it. There is another frog in there who eats heartily, so missing crickets are probably due to him.. but he doesn't eat them so quickly that this guy doesn't have a chance. I've seen him with a cricket 1/2" away from his face and he turns away.
13. Have you found poop lately -- yes, he pooped yesterday
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area. -- main symptom is not eating, also lethargy. do not see any lesions or redness on his belly. his coloring is good and similar to the other frog.
16. How old is the frog -- do not know, we have had him 2.5 weeks and the store said he was 1 month when we got him.
17. How long have you owned him/her. 2 weeks
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats -- so far just small crickets.
20. How often the frog is handled -- he had been handled several times a day (hands washed, rinsed well, then rinsed with spring water) --we are now trying not to disturb him although I did move him to a critter keeper with just him and crickets to see if he'd eat about 2 hours ago... he hasn't moved or eaten
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area -- medium.
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) -- water dishes are cleaned out at least once, maybe twice a day if they look dirty. poop is removed from substrate. He has been in this terrarium for about one week now... he had been in a smaller lower profile one prior to this and we moved him. Plan is to clean out every 1-2 weeks with pooper-scoopering in the interim.

[patiomom]

In addition to these question i would really would like to see pic of the frogs and their enclosure.

I am including a few photos -- two of the enclosure,and two of the not eating frog -- he is in a critter keeper right now as I pulled him out try to get him to eat. The quarter is for size purposes and don't worry, it is under the clear plastic, not in there with him.
Sorry the two of the enclosure are sideways... but if you turn your head real funny....

[Lija]

Ok first thing you need to do is to find a vet in your area to do fecal exam. This is a very common procedure and i advise everyone to do it as soon as they get a new frog, especially if another one is present. If you cant find vet around you, you can contact dr. Frye at http://milanareaanimalhospital.com, you will need to send samples in and if meds needed he will ship them to you.

Next - stress levels - have you covered 3 sides of your enclosure? How does the other frog you have eat? How does the feeding time looks like?

[Lija]

Ok got it! Pics were self explanatory. He is very stressed out and being in KK is not helping, put him back, add way more plants, branch or two, so it'd look like forest of sorts. Cover sides of the tank with anything not see through and leave him alone for a few days, then offer crickets. Dont use glass bowl, some frogs are not getting it right away, so just drop crickets in a tank.

Fecal test wont hurt to do anyway, if one frog has parasites, both will need to be treated.

[patiomom]

Ok first thing you need to do is to find a vet in your area to do fecal exam. This is a very common procedure and i advise everyone to do it as soon as they get a new frog, especially if another one is present. If you cant find vet around you, you can contact dr. Frye at http://milanareaanimalhospital.com, you will need to send samples in and if meds needed he will ship them to you.

Next - stress levels - have you covered 3 sides of your enclosure? How does the other frog you have eat? How does the feeding time looks like?

Other frog eats like a champ -- he is a little skinnier that 'MiSH' but will eat 3-4 or more small crickets a day. MiSH has never ate more than 1 or 2, even before I'd say he stopped eating. When we got MiSH they said they fed him at 11:20 (day time)... so we kept close to that schedule. It seems thought that I should push it more toward night time. I did try one evening to put a few in thinking it was a nocturnal thing, but he didn't eat then eitehr.

OK--off to find a frog poop doctor...
Please keep the suggestions coming. I'm a novice but am committed, I take pet ownership seriously (just check out my dog's vet bills to confirm that).

[patiomom]

Thank you! Will do.
One question -- we are going away for 4 days. I was planning on having to take him to a friend's to take care of him and his pal. Should I just leave him here and have someone add water but nothing else? I can start calling neighbors I don't know... if they don't have to do the crickets they may be willing to do it. (I'd still probably have to take the other one to the friends as he is eating like gangbusters)

[Lija]

No the water needs to be not added, but changed completely.

i think i didnt quite get a question - are you asking if that is ok to put them both together after you fix the enclosure and leave them both without a food for 4days only changing water?

[patiomom]

No the water needs to be not added, but changed completely.

i think i didnt quite get a question - are you asking if that is ok to put them both together after you fix the enclosure and leave them both without a food for 4days only changing water?

Sorry. I did mean change the water.

What I am really saying is that we are going away for 4-5 days. I am concerned about stressing him further by transporting the and a new enclosure. So, would it be too much time without crickets if I left the stressed one here in his enclosure (I already covered the sides and am going out to get plants as soon as I can) and just had someone come in to change the water, if I am not likely to be adding crickets for a few days anyway. My issue in finding a pet sitter was someone who wasn't afraid to handle the crickets. If that is too long without at least offering crickets, I will probably need to transport him although I may go beg a neighbor and show them how easy the cricket thing is to do.

[Mentat]

You need to get temp's up to 85F and humidity around 50-60%. Also, heat mats in frogs enclosure need to be affixed to side. Reason is frogs bury to cool down. Myself do not trust bottled water. It is more safer to use treated tap (Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize) since they treat those bottled waters to human drinking city standards, not frog standards. The water dish should be cleaned and refilled daily even if it looks clear. The coco substrate should be mixed with treated tap until slightly damp and clumps in fist without dripping water out.

Are you driving to vacation site? How far? Maybe it's possible to take them with you .

[patiomom]

You need to get temp's up to 85F and humidity around 50-60%. Also, heat mats in frogs enclosure need to be affixed to side. Reason is frogs bury to cool down. Myself do not trust bottled water. It is more safer to use treated tap (Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize) since they treat those bottled waters to human drinking city standards, not frog standards. The water dish should be cleaned and refilled daily even if it looks clear. The coco substrate should be mixed with treated tap until slightly damp and clumps in fist without dripping water out.

Are you driving to vacation site? How far? Maybe it's possible to take them with you .

Just checked, temp is 85+ on warm side -- 75+ on cool side. This is what all the White's tree frog care sites I've found recommend. Humidity is correct too.

I will switch to treating the tap water.

No, we are taking a Megabus, can't take them with us in a 18x18x24 terrarium, and that would be even more stressful I'd think. They will be in a calm environment at the other houses, away from curious eyes of children, etc for five days. We do clear the water dishes every day -- dump, rinse, rinse in spring water, and refill. At least once but often twice because they get stuff in them.

Thanks to both of you for your advice. We'll keep our fingers crossed for little MiSH.