I think my WTF may be sick..

[mpmistr]

The flagyl is for you. It's taken the same way as a suppository.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

Exit only, buddy! =P

My concern here is I just am iffy about prying a small creatures mouth open to administer medication.

[deranged chipmunk]

Hee hee!! Just wanted to get a smile on your face bud. You seemed like you were a half a step away from a panic attack


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[mpmistr]

I'm more worried at the moment over the fact I cannot _find_ the frog right now.. lol

[mpmistr]

Okay when I got home I was able to find him but I had to basically remove every plant and wood piece from the tank to find him..



Here he is, I've placed him in the 35g hex for a hospital set up, he was very active when I finally found him and unearthed him.. he was all over the place.

[Lija]

Good news for you - you will need to rip all your set up, get rid of everything that cant be disinfected.

More good news your frog looks fine, little skinny, but fine and s/he is eating!

Yep flagyl is administered orally! Have fun!

[mpmistr]

Good news for you - you will need to rip all your set up, get rid of everything that cant be disinfected.

More good news your frog looks fine, little skinny, but fine and s/he is eating!

Yep flagyl is administered orally! Have fun!

I've already broken down the tank. How can I disinfect the plants though? I just ordered a bunch from blackjungle so please don't say 50 dollars worth of plants are going down the drain.. :\ They were only in the tank for a single night and the sick guy buried himself immediately for some reason.. I mean if it has to be, alright but ugh...

Removing substrate and bleaching the tank out? That I can easily do.

I've placed each frog in to a 10 gallon tank with wet paper towel and I ripped up my snake plant so they have something to climb on. I taped up 3 sides of each aquarium so they don't stress and they are sharing a heat lamp.

Oh and I called the vet clinic but did not get to speak with the vet directly. The woman I spoke with didn't sound like they've ever dealt with amphibians but she said the vet would call me back if she could do the fecal exam.

[Lija]

That is Bill's area of expertise no idea about the plants, but substrate is gotta go. You might wait for fecal to be back though, i dont wanna get bombarded with ripped tomatoes just to be very very sure. You can contact dr frye he is dealing with all over the emails/phone and sending meds to anywhere in US.

[mpmistr]

That is Bill's area of expertise no idea about the plants, but substrate is gotta go. You might wait for fecal to be back though, i dont wanna get bombarded with ripped tomatoes just to be very very sure. You can contact dr frye he is dealing with all over the emails/phone and sending meds to anywhere in US.

I'm going to remove the substrate and just bleach it out, the plants.. I can put those in a window for now and maybe just give them a good rinse. I'll see what Bill thinks on that.

Once I get the fecal exam I'll shoot Dr Frye and email if necessary. Hopefully the local vet can help out.

Should I continue to feed the frogs? My skinny guy just was not interested in food today, he ate three crickets last night.. I want them to do their 'business' of course.

[deranged chipmunk]

Bleach dip the plants in a 10% solution. Do not bleach moss. Leave it out to dry for a month then you can put it back in an rehydrate it.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Lija]

I'm going to remove the substrate and just bleach it out, the plants.. I can put those in a window for now and maybe just give them a good rinse. I'll see what Bill thinks on that.

Once I get the fecal exam I'll shoot Dr Frye and email if necessary. Hopefully the local vet can help out.

Should I continue to feed the frogs? My skinny guy just was not interested in food today, he ate three crickets last night.. I want them to do their 'business' of course.

Sure you can feed, nothing overcomplicated you need to be aware about. Ca and multivitamin dusting schedule as usual.

[mpmistr]

Here is an odd twist... the frog with a healthier weight, it is HIS feces that is rancid. The other frogs not so much, though his poop was smaller.. but it was not runny. I tried to feed them this morning, the skinny guy ate two then lost interest, the other frog just wasn't interested in food this morning.

I need to get the fecal test done either way, at this point I am just waiting for the vet to return my call.

[Lija]

To add to what i just told you
It is normal for a frog to have massive protozoa infection and have a runny stool. That is why it is advisable to quarantine each frog separately, you see everything, how they eat, what they poop, what they have or not. Same with treatment, one frog might be ok after 2 treatments and poop come back negative, but other might require. I alway advise to do a chytrid testing too.

Telling you they both will be just fine.

[mpmistr]

Would it be safe to treat the frogs with lamisil regardless or would a test be better first? I am not sure how stressful lamisil are on frogs.

[kueluck]

For my WTF oral meds are easy to give by injecting a waxworm or cricket with the meds. Or you can use a dosing needle which works great also, but the bug thing is easier.

[flybyferns]

Michael,
It's really best to wait for the fecal test result.
You don't want to treat and then find out it's something else!
Plus, they may be on medication for a long time. Why give them something they don't need.

For now I would keep them in QT and separated.
QT for illness is different than QT for 2 newly acquired frogs ( that could be QT'd together)
Concentrate on daily cleaning when they are sleeping so it will reduce the stress of being moved/handled.
Use disposable gloves between each tank !!!!!!!! Keep good habits of getting the paper towels and gloves OUT to the garbage can!
Don't worry about how long they are in QT .
I would purchase 2 ---10 gallon aquariums w screen lids.
Add pleixi or glass to the screen lid to help keep the humidity up ( simply tape it for now w/ clear pkg tap)
Do everything possible to reduce their stress. It's not a good time to think they are comfortable to you !
Keep them in a quiet place / cover three sides of the enclosures/ provide complete darkness at night.

Temp:
The humidity is important ....but the temp more so. Keep the temp at the higher end of the recommendations!
Chytrid fungus dose not like the high temps. When they are ill > they have a suppressed immune system > of which can lead to other illnesses
Plus the temps are important to help them digest their food properly.

Food:
This is NOT a time that you should worry about over-feeding the frogs! Feed them daily!
Just be sure the cricks are not HUGE, but on the smaller side as this will also help with digestion.
ie crickets heads and cricket limbs do not digest completely. So the small those body parts are the better.
Plus 3 smaller cricks w/ supps are better than 1 big one

Another idea...If you were to get 4 --10 gallon tanks....you could do a switch form dirty to clean easily.
( I actually do this for my cricket bins) each 10 gal tank is small to clean either outside/in the shower/or bathtub.)
Every day clean - fill with - water/a cupful of bleach/ and let it sit for a few minutes.
Rinse, rinse, rinse in water w' plenty of de-chlorinater > reuse
If I had to do this for 2 frogs --- I wold definitely approach it this way.
The cleaning is very important otherwise you are constantly re-exposing them to the bugs
Hang in there this is an exhausting process !!!!
You want to keep their area 'like a lab'. CLEAN !
Whites are a wonderful species that will be with you for a long time!

Do you bowl feed? its a great way to monitor food intake- I suggest using a glass bowl.
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...eder-bowl.html

You can do 2 important tests yourself. Info is below !
Testing:
Here is the information re the 2 tests:
RAL - Test : Reptile
1) Ranavirus-swab/feces
2)Chytrid Fungus (B. dendorobatidis)-swab

here is their form:
http://www.vetdna.com/application/fo...issionform.pdf

You know about Dr Frye --- right ? He has help me immensely !
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

Review QT
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html

Sorry to blab
I could go on ---- please keep the questions coming !!!!!
There are a lot of experienced members here that have had to do just this!

[mpmistr]

Michael,
It's really best to wait for the fecal test result.
You don't want to treat and then find out it's something else!
Plus, they may be on medication for a long time. Why give them something they don't need.

Right. I am getting the fecal test done today. I have not medicated them until I have results.

For now I would keep them in QT and separated.
QT for illness is different than QT for 2 newly acquired frogs ( that could be QT'd together)
Concentrate on daily cleaning when they are sleeping so it will reduce the stress of being moved/handled.
Use disposable gloves between each tank !!!!!!!! Keep good habits of getting the paper towels and gloves OUT to the garbage can!
Don't worry about how long they are in QT .
I would purchase 2 ---10 gallon aquariums w screen lids.
Add pleixi or glass to the screen lid to help keep the humidity up ( simply tape it for now w/ clear pkg tap)
Do everything possible to reduce their stress. It's not a good time to think they are comfortable to you !
Keep them in a quiet place / cover three sides of the enclosures/ provide complete darkness at night.

They are currently in two 10 gallons, I've placed tape on 3 sides to minimize stress. I've been keeping good hygiene between the two tanks as you've stated.

Temp:
The humidity is important ....but the temp more so. Keep the temp at the higher end of the recommendations!
Chytrid fungus dose not like the high temps. When they are ill > they have a suppressed immune system > of which can lead to other illnesses
Plus the temps are important to help them digest their food properly.

Are we sure we are dealing with Chytrid here? I am trying to keep them as warm as possible, each frog has a heat lamp on their tank right now.

Food:
This is NOT a time that you should worry about over-feeding the frogs! Feed them daily!
Just be sure the cricks are not HUGE, but on the smaller side as this will also help with digestion.
ie crickets heads and cricket limbs do not digest completely. So the small those body parts are the better.
Plus 3 smaller cricks w/ supps are better than 1 big one

I've been feeding daily for as long as the frogs will eat. I can usually get them to eat 4-5 crickets per day. I try to see if they will eat an earthworm now and then but they will not.

Another idea...If you were to get 4 --10 gallon tanks....you could do a switch form dirty to clean easily.
( I actually do this for my cricket bins) each 10 gal tank is small to clean either outside/in the shower/or bathtub.)
Every day clean - fill with - water/a cupful of bleach/ and let it sit for a few minutes.
Rinse, rinse, rinse in water w' plenty of de-chlorinater > reuse
If I had to do this for 2 frogs --- I wold definitely approach it this way.
The cleaning is very important otherwise you are constantly re-exposing them to the bugs
Hang in there this is an exhausting process !!!!
You want to keep their area 'like a lab'. CLEAN !
Whites are a wonderful species that will be with you for a long time!

I've been replacing the paper towel and water bowel daily (they've only been in a QT setup for a day now). I've been removing feces daily and wiping the tanks down, I've not been using bleach though. I can start doing this though. I will see if I can get additional 10 gallons, they're fairly inexpensive.

Do you bowl feed? its a great way to monitor food intake- I suggest using a glass bowl.
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...eder-bowl.html

You can do 2 important tests yourself. Info is below !
Testing:
Here is the information re the 2 tests:
RAL - Test : Reptile
1) Ranavirus-swab/feces
2)Chytrid Fungus (B. dendorobatidis)-swab

here is their form:
http://www.vetdna.com/application/fo...issionform.pdf

You know about Dr Frye --- right ? He has help me immensely !
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

Review QT
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html

Sorry to blab
I could go on ---- please keep the questions coming !!!!!
There are a lot of experienced members here that have had to do just this!

Thank you for the info I will check it out. I did email Dr. Frye, just waiting on a response. I found a vet to to a fecal exam locally so I was going to drop that off before work.

Does this appear to be Chytrid though? I've been reading on Chytrid treatments and Lamisil appears to have no real side effects.

[deranged chipmunk]

Wow, you have Gail, Lynn and Lija helping you out? You have the best of the best here bud. Your frogs are going to be fine. And no, it doesn't sound like chytrid to me. But I'm just a builder. They're the frog nurses


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Heatheranne]

Hi guys, just catching up. I'd have to agree...it sounds like a parasite. The fecal exam is your best bet. A vet can prescribe Metronidizole, Panacur, or Ivermectin or a combo of Metro and Panacur or Ivermectin. It usually works very well.

I will follow along as well.

[mpmistr]

Thanks guys I appreciate all the help! I hope to have these frogs back to being healthy as soon as the vet performs the fecal exam and prescribes medicine.

Both frogs seem to be doing well in their QT set ups, both are actually eating but just not a whole lot unfortunately. They seem to lose interest after a few crickets. I am going to see if I can acquire a fattier feeder like waxworms or butterworms to get some weight back on them.

As soon as I get a chance I am going to work on completely breaking down their main enclosure and bleaching it clean. I am going to 'bake' all the driftwood and dip the plants in a 10% bleach solution as Bill suggested and then completely change out the substrate.

[Lija]

Lynn - that lab you gave link for, do they work with owners directly? Wow, that is awesome!
Michael, dont worry about how much they eat, they eat and that is good!

as for lamisil - i never would treat somebody for something unless that something is present. No matter how harmless meds can be, for a tiny and sensitive for everything frog, it will be a stress for its body and it will affect one way and another. Meds should be treated with caution, always! It is not chytrid for sure. The only reason i mentioned it as testing should be usual quarantine procedure. Some frogs can be carriers, meaning they have it, spread it but are not sick themselves, if such a frog gets into household with more animals it can do lots of trouble, so it is something i always do along with fecal testing during quarantine period.

Ivomectin ( ivomec) is the only one that is water soluble and can be absorbed through skin, but it doesnt work for protozoa and is very toxic. I'm using it for my peacocks now. Usual concentration that stuff is distributed doesnt work for frogs. I had the lab to dilute it to lower by probably 1000x concentration, then calculated dose for each frog according to their weight ( up to 0,01g). For that reason i would never recommend to use this drug at home, only at vet clinic under supervision. Unless you are Lynn

another thing to watch if using ivomec for wc whites, it works well and systemically. If you have massive parasite invasion including intermittent forms of tapeworms that is common for WC whites, it is very dangerous to get rid of them all at once with ivomec.

Michael that all above is FIY only, it doesnt apply to your frogs