interesting collection of ? 'goodies'

[flybyferns]

What are the tiny caterpillars?

This photo was taken w/ an oloclip 21X macro lens. They are less that a 1/4 of an inch long - off white.
They will get on the glass and walk around as well. The don't have a 'mushy' body. The body feels surprisingly firm.
They are on a coconut 1/2 ( of which was bake and boiled/ months ago )



Plus, if you enlarge the ...there is another little gray weevil looking bug walking around.... on top of the of white caterpillars.

These ONLY are in my P terribilis enclosure.
They are living/feeding there - happily with the isopods.

I'm a little concerned as they are not a lg enough feeder for the terribilis; as a result they are multiplying.

I may be looking at breaking this tank down .
Sadly this pair of Mints are about to breed

[JeffreH]

The white 'caterpillars' look to me like millipedes.

It's difficult to tell from the photo, but it looks like there are a lot of legs present; perhaps two pairs per segment. A caterpillar will have six legs and usually five pairs of prolegs (the "suction cup" legs toward the abdomen) equating to approximately 16 "legs" total... although the prolegs are not true legs. These specimens appear to have significantly more legs and segments than this, and have that millipede look to em'. I doubt they'll be harmful to your frog, perhaps they are too large or produce some noxious defense that the frogs find unpalatable. Without enemies and with an abundance of resources the population must be taking off.

The other critters in there look like different species of springtail to me - I don't see anything that I would deem harmful. Looks like a group of normal soil dwelling detritivores... you'd probably see very similar types of organisms if you were to sample quality forest soil and litter =)

[deranged chipmunk]

I'm no bug expert, like Jeff, but my first thought was millipedes. Too many legs like Jeff said to be caterpillars. I get them from time to time, but never that much. I just pick them out when I see them.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[flybyferns]

Thanks guys !
I'm sure you're right. Like I mentioned the body is NOT soft.

I guess I will make believe I won't panic.
That's a lot of millipedes. And really tiny- too!

They do not get any bigger then what you see in the photo ,they move slower than a snails pace, and remain that color.

I have not witnessed the frogs eating them.
They seem to head to the water.

I'll just keep squishing them I'll leave the coconut 1/2 as it will be easier to get rid of them.
I wish I knew for sure if I could just leave well enough alone ?

Lucky me.........Thank You Very Much for getting back to me so quickly

[JeffreH]

Happy to help Lynn! =)

Let's try something - this might be a little weird, but I'm hoping it can give us some insight into this species defenses. I would take as many as possible and crush them up with my fingers to see if they secrete any kind of irritants to the skin. I'd expect them to produce a modestly bad smell, but I'd suspect it shouldn't be anything that will knock you off your feet.

I'm pretty confident that your frogs will be safe with them regardless as the noxious compounds most millipedes produce as a deterrent to being preyed upon aren't typically lethal. Its more of a pungent odor or taste that will make the predator avoid feeding altogether, so your frogs have probably learned to avoid them... In nature, there are actually a number of cases of wild frogs and other critters feeding on them despite this chemical deterrent and they do fine. In fact, Saporito et al. (2003) published a study in the Journal of Chemical Ecology suggesting that Dendobatid frogs might consume some millipedes as a source of toxin sequestering.

[flybyferns]

I don't think this weird at all, Jeff
It's a great idea. I will try to brave. I WILL be using gloves.

I will do it tomorrow as they 'round the drinking hole' in the morning along with the isopods.
I will let you know, posting the findings here.

I'm really looking forward to this

Lynn

[deranged chipmunk]

Please let is know Lynn. I'm very interested to see what the results are


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[flybyferns]

I'll do a little photo shoot tomorrow, too.
I think I can get a better shot of them.

[Heatheranne]

Very interesting indeed. I'll be following along.

[Mentat]

If they are attracted to water Lynn; maybe a trap with water and some coco (like a very shallow lid) could entice them to congregate and then just remove/dispose of it in morning .

[flybyferns]

If they are attracted to water Lynn; maybe a trap with water and some coco (like a very shallow lid) could entice them to congregate and then just remove/dispose of it in morning .

Thanks Carlos,
Actually the coconut 1/2 is working really well.
I just grab it and rinse. Sadly, I'm rinsing the other 'clean-up' crew as well

[flybyferns]

OK
So........ I have completed my duties. Thank you for all the help

The first (smaller batch) I collected in the palm of my hand did not have such a terrible smell.
It reminded me of almond extract.

The second, much larger batch, I squished was much stronger.
It reminds me of Houttuynia cordata (Chameleon Plant) - which is grown as ground cover in moist areas here in NY.

They DO, most definitely have, 'crusty' bodies-gritty

I found these 2 photos on-line:



So, it turns out they are not so uncommon. But can become an 'infestation"
I guess I will be more diligent about getting them out of there?
I was up late and have found lots of interesting information regarding them:

-Many opinions are ----> It's not a bad thing.
-They may 'slowly' disappear.
-One can bomb the tank with dry ice or CO2[/I] - ( yeah! I might have to resort to this ? lol)
-Some zoos purposely introduce them because they are great janitors.
-They are ( like Jeff mentioned ) one of the prime toxins in their natural diet and likely came from one of the 'rainforest' plants that are established in this enclosure, most of my plants come from one supplier. ( fitting they should be in the P terribilis enclosure )

very interesting - a quote of some information I was reading last night <quote> :
( I apologize -- I forget where this was ? )

<"As you know, poison frogs lost their toxicity in captivity when kept on the usual cricket-fruit fly-springtail diet. There is an outside chance that your frogs could synthesize toxins from the millipedes, but in all likelihood they would need to consume species native to their natural environments in order to do so. This did occur at the National Aquarium in Baltimore, when frogs were released into a large rain forest exhibit, but the millipedes involved had been transported their with plants from Central America. In any event, just be sure not to handle the frogs with bare hands, and wash well in general when working around them...could be an interesting situation you have there! ">

Check it out !
Poisonous Prey | Bad smell, Bad taste and Powerful Poision | Animal Defense Mechanism

I will have to sit myself in front of their tank a watch them very closely. The male's favorite spot is in a low (very damp ) section of the enclosure. I wonder if he is picking them off ? Although, I have not seen him do it.

Some photos of their enclosure this AM:





Very odd , They are only in this one enclosure; of which is up and running for over a year and 1/2 ! I have not put anything new in it for months and months. I NEVER take a plant from one enclosure and put it into another (thank goodness). For my frog's protection, ( 8 species) I wear a new pr of gloves for of every tank I work in during regular maintenance tasks.

[JeffreH]

Nice research, Lynn! And beautiful enclosure!

I think the almond smell you describe is what is often associated with what MIGHT be hydrogen cyanide gas; or at least, I've read that it is a genetic trait in some people to smell an almond fragrance from this volatile. Although hydrogen cyanide is toxic at high concentration in a confined space, I don't think these millipedes are a threat to your frogs... It is a pretty common defense in millipedes from my understanding... It is also a common secondary metabolite in plants (i.e. your Chameleon Plant) to deter herbivore attack. Not only are the frogs likely equipped with the metabolic tools to handle this, but even if they can't, the defense is purely a deterrent. The frog should find the millipede so foul that it should immediately spit it out when it tastes the noxious defense... and given that these things are so small and will only secrete the chemical upon individual attack, I think its fair to bet that the frog has figured out that they are unpalatable by now.

[deranged chipmunk]

I'm actually kind of curious HOW they got in there. Lynn, you have some of the most impeccable quarantine routines for both your animals and plants. Did something in this tank bypass qt?? @jeff, any idea what the life cycle is for these, as far as time for the eggs to hatch?


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[DigitalPunk]

Very interesting! If nothing else this shows the care and attention Lynn pays to her frogs and enclosure. Those things are so small they could go unnoticed by a less attentive keeper

Please keep us updated on this!

[flybyferns]

I believe I have found a possible source while 'feeding' an isopod culture yesterday. I have a few of these millipedes in one of my 2 large isopod cultures. This culture is new-ish. Also, I recently put those lg cocoa leaves in it ( and not in the older culture) that were purchased at a WP show in April.

I have not use the leaves in any enclosures however.
I could have seeded the P t tank w/ the soil from his culture?

So heads-up... Bill and Heather --- as we shared that stack of leaves. I will be throwing them out unless one of you want them?
I did not use the leaves in an enclosure because they had a little bit of a moldy smell to me .
They are still sitting on a shelf ,loosely wrapped and rubber banded together they way we purchased them.

The millipede hatching does not seem to be getting any worse ?
I'm not worried about it any more.

I read somewhere that after that are - purposely- used for feeders in a PDF enclosure a frog 'may become toxic' again? Plausible, but can't imagine this could be possible. Who handles their PDFs anyway ? If they had to be handle ( ie for testing ) no one would be doing it with out gloves on?

[deranged chipmunk]

Lynn, I have used those leaves in three tanks, but no millipedes in them. I actually love those leaves lol I even have them in my aquatic grow out tank to help soften the water ever more so that I had it (6.1 now 5.8 ) for my crypts. Although I guess it is possible that you got the batch with dormant eggs on it? That sounds about like your luck lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[flybyferns]

I guess I will boil them or better yet send them to you
I mostly didn't use them because they smell moldy.

They are cocoa leaves - right ?

[deranged chipmunk]

Yup. That they are.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Strider18]

These are definitely millipedes. They are probably harmless, and in fact I personally would leave them in there to help with the other cleanup crews as they are very good decomposers If you really want to get them out then there isn't a problem in that, but like I said I would leave them in there