Anyone heard of designer frogs.com

[LilyPad]

Clayton, instead of going with a sexed pair for $200-300, why not get a group of young Azureus, Josh's frogs has them for $39.99 each or 4 for 29.99 each, if you get 3 or 4, you have a pretty good chance of getting a pair in there. That's what I would do. If you have more males or females than you would like when they're adults, you could sell them.

[Boondoggle]

I drifted over from another forum but wanted to chime in. I can feel your frustration.

Just a bit of history...Designer frogs was started not very long ago as a family operation. They often brag about the experience they have with thousands and thousands of frogs, but have really only owned frogs for about 3 years and have only been on anyone's radar for about the last year. It's now clear that from early on their goal was to create "Designer Frogs", a derogatory term they've adopted and rebranded from the hobby, from the very start. Many hobbyists became suspicious of this early on when it seemed that the website (whatever it was called back then, they've gone through some name changes) seemed to focus a lot of webspace on the argument that there was no difference between the regional varieties of dart frogs and that because these regional crossbreeds can occur, then they must occur in the wild. They quoted respected scientific sources selectively and out of context to make this argument, completely ignoring the natural barriers that create and maintain these regional varieties in the wild. They even claimed that they had completely mapped the dart frog phenotype and could create through crossbreeding frogs that weren't just indistinguishable from other varieties (perhaps some that weren't even in the hobby), but actually WERE those varieties. The "science" they used to back those claims was ridiculous even from a novices point of view.

Obviously they had seen the popularity of crossbred stock with other animals and saw it as an unexploited niche in the hobby and assumed that it would be wildly popular. As you're probably learning now the great majority of the dart frog community puts much more value on traceable natural lines. It probably has to do with the conservation-minded people that the hobby appeals to. It's not really conservation by any means, but most hobbyists would like to preserve the frogs natural state, as many may be gone/unavailable in our lifetimes. Right or wrong, that is what the hobby seems to value. Initially Designerfrogs prices were on par with the rest of the hobby, and their "hybrids" were about 3-4 times that cost. Eventually they had to lower their prices well below the hobby to make any sales, including their "hybrids". Now they have a problem. They are seen as a pariah by the legitimate hobby and they claim to have 7000+ frogs that the hobby wont touch, so they've focused their sales on wholesaling to pet stores, that really only care about cost, and the new and uniformed. The way they've targeted the uniformed is by claiming/implying that many of the "innovations" that have been common practice for years in the hobby were, not only their invention, but that they're the only ones who offer such a service, for instance:

1)They've trademarked the name "SAFE" and use it interchangeably with "non-poisonous", and they strongly imply that other breeders are selling dangerously poison frogs. Wild frogs are poison because of their "wild" diet. Some wild caught frogs retain some toxicity for a while, but the vast majority of frogs available are captive bred and any frog on a captive diet cannot sequester enough alkaloids to create appreciable toxins. By that measure, almost all dart frogs are safe.

2)They muddy the language in any conversation about pathogens. They will claim that their collection is pathogen/chytrid/parasite free because they are trademarked SAFE (wait, didn't that mean non toxic?). When asked if they do any testing they say they don't have to because their animals are guaranteed 100% healthy. No testing + rampant crossbreeding, thus encouraging novel pathogens = 100% healthy.

3) They claim to be the only ones who offer a live arrival guarantee. Every reputable breeder offers that. It is literally the minimum you must do to be considered a legitimate breeder.

4) They claim to be shipping experts that can ship in any weather. Again, safe, responsible, legal shipping is the minimum any legitimate breeder can offer.

5) They claim that their crossbreeding will put less stress on wild imports, when it historically has CLEARLY shown to put more stress on wild imports by weakening confidence in the validity of current hobby strains.

6) They've given really bad husbandry advice to newbies in an effort to sell more frogs, i.e. mixing and overcrowding.

7) They've done their best to demonize methylparaben (additive used in many fruit fly culture recipes). All the available science shows it is harmless in the quantities it's used in, but they've launched a smear campaign on it's use to cast a shadow over other breeders and distract from the actual health concerns that Designerfrogs risks.

8) They claim that their frogs are much, much larger than other breeders frogs of the same age and sex-able earlier. I'm really oversimplifying here but basically the factors contributing to growth are genetics, feeding, absence of stress, absence of toxins. They purchased their founding stock from other hobbyists...same genetics. They feed every other day...not powerfeeding. They overcrowd frogs...contributes to stress. They don't use methylparaben...many breeders do, many do not, the science says it makes no difference. I don't have any evidence that their frogs are any larger or smaller as it's an unprovable claim, but it would be very easy to just shave a couple months off the frogs age and voila, you have the largest frogs for their age...not much of a claim.

9) They anthropomorphize the frogs to a ridiculous extent. It's one thing to advertise happy healthy frogs, it's quite another to claim that the frogs you breed enjoy human company, look forward to interactions with the owners, are happier if they are purchased and kept with the other BFF frogs they've been raised with, and are guaranteed to never have territorial conflicts with the BFF frogs they've been purchased with. These were all actual claims.

10) Things got real creepy when the owner got tired of the online criticism and started threatening law suits, tracing IP addresses and asking for personal information in an attempt to intimidate and stop the comments/observations. He's backed off recently because he kind of went to far and published something on his website that could be construed as harassment.

11) They've renamed species of frogs in a direct attempt to muddy the waters. It's an attempt to de-legitimize known lines of frogs, and legitimize artificially created lines of frogs. They claim it's to differentiate their frogs from other breeders, but it's the really a misinformation campaign to put crossbreeds on an even playing field.

This is literally a sampling of just some of the issues many of us have had with Designerfrogs. Almost any of the above points is designed to fool a buyer before he gets a chance to become a little more informed. I could keep going, but this post is probably too long for anyone to read as is. The bottom line is that Designerfrogs has invested a ton of money into a venture which most hobbyists recognize as bad for the hobby. Instead of backing up and correcting the major issues, they've doubled down and thrown up smokescreens. They proven themselves dishonest and have 7000 frogs of questionable heritage that they need to get rid of. They've already stated that they do not recognize natural occurring variations as legitimate, so maybe the original poster got pure azureus, and maybe he didn't. If they're claiming they are pure, then they probably are...but you can see that there may be pressures for them not to be honest about a designation that they have publicly said they don't respect anyway. Even if you don't disagree with the production of crossbreeds, they way they've gone about it is deceptive and sleazy.

...and while I don't have any adult azureus pairs now, I sold my last two pairs for $150/pair plus shipping. For common frogs like azureus, that's not atypical.