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Thread: Is Pig ill? :.l

  1. #1
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Is Pig ill? :.l

    Hi guys. I need your help :.l

    My little Duttaphrynus melanostictus, "Pig", has developed a kind of swollenness in his warts and in his left hand that I'm a little worried about. I've looked around the net, but couldn't find anything describing this as an illness and I just want to check up with you.

    - I filled out the "Trouble in enclosure" document and have attached pictures below.

    I got him ca. two weeks ago from a reptile expo in Hamm. Besides being a little skinny, he seemed in good health. He had one swollen wart, that's slowly grown since then. He is still active and very interested in prey. Eats well and made a HUMUNGOS poop a little under a week ago, other than that I have only seen a small poop in his dish and small clumbs, that could be poop, on the ground. He is not swollen stomach-wise, doesn't walk strange or act strange at all. I know it can be hard in amphibians, but he does not seem to be at any discomfort, is not acting strange in any way, is not lethargic or energy drained.

    But his hand worries me. Here's my info - I hope you guys can help me out :l

    ----------------
    Hello,
    answerto "Trouble in the enclosure" questionnary :

    1.Size of enclosure
    15,7 inches deep. 11,8 inches high, 16,1 inches wides (Pig just fills out the cup of my palm)

    2.# of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
    Noother inhabitants.

    3.Humidity
    Ca. 70% - no humidity measurer yet.


    4.Temperature
    20 – 21 degress. (68 - 69 fehrenheit)


    5.Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
    Tap water (thewater in Copehagen is fosfor- and chlorine free and soft (not high in calcium levels). Water's left to airfor 24 hours. Used for two Bufo bufo wildcaught without any problemfor a year).


    6.Materials used for substrate
    Unfertilised topsoil and without anychemicals.

    7.Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark andother materials.
    -How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
    Mosspads.They were just watered with cold water and put in. Bought at aterrarium expo, as material for vivarium/terrarium.


    8.Main food source
    Crickets dusted once (only had Pig for two weeks)and well fed w. clean water every second day, oats, fish flakes,vegetables.

    9.Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
    I've had him for ca. two weeks.I dusted once so far.



    10.Lighting
    Compact UV sun 11W lightbuld from Llucky Reptile(although he stays in his coconut house practically all day)

    11.What is being used to maintain the temperature of theenclosure
    Nothing. It's not necessary – our room is kept atliving room temperature and is 19-21 degrees constant.

    12.When is the last time he/she ate
    Last time was yesterday(23/3)

    13.Have you found poop lately
    Five-six days ago saw a HUGE poop!Other than that not sure – look for poop everyday, only found smallclumps yesterday, that could well be poop (covered in topsoil)

    14.A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any includingcell phone pic is fine)
    (Included below)

    Name:  Pigs4t.jpg
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Size:  46.8 KB Pig had a right wart on his side, a little swollen, when I got him. It's slowly grown and look like these three, which have also slowly grown.

    Name:  Pigst.jpg
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Size:  48.6 KBName:  Pigs3t.jpg
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Size:  300.3 KBThis shows his right hand. I don't like the swollenness :.( He uses it completely normally, but he did not have this two weeks ago.


    15.How old is the frog
    Not sure. I think he is ca. 1½ yearsold.

    16.How long have you owned him/her
    Ca. two weeks.

    17.Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
    Not sure, but I believe he is captive bred.

    18.Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders areused as treats
    He has been fed well fed crickets, small enough forhim (not wider than the width between his eyes) and occasional 1-2mealworms as a snack (two times since I've had him). Would not takeearth worm yet.

    19.How often the frog is handled
    Ca.once every second or third day, for about 10 minutes.

    20.Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
    Medium. I onlyhave a one-room apartment so he's situated in the center of the room,on a shelf against the wall, besides the terrarium w. my other twoguys. He has a coconut house where he can stay completelyhidden.

    21.Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
    Wateris cleaned every night where I poor out the water from the daybefore, wipe the bowl thuroughly w. toiletpaper to get rid of anyremnants of anything (there is not left
    anyleftovers of paper atalland once a month I poor boiling water over the bowl, before fillingin new water – but I have not had him for that long. Also I checkfor poop every second day and remove it. Remove all topsoil ca. everymonth, but have not had him for that long.)

    Also,post some pictures of the enclosure
    Name:  Grisen2.jpg
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Size:  65.5 KBName:  Grisen3.jpg
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Size:  67.6 KB



    Hope you guys can help me and that I'm worried for nothing :./

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  3. #2
    Ratz
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Hello, thats a beautyfull toad you got there, I especially love those spiny warts

    As it is a tropical species it needs somewhat higher temperatures in the daytime. I would try to reach at least 25°C at day, with room temperature at night.
    For the swollen bodyparts I have no idea what could be the cause. Just hope its nothing serious... but as he eats and behaves normally he probably doesnt suffer much.

  4. #3
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Nobody else heard or saw this before? I'm writing the online amfibian vet tomorrow.

  5. #4
    Moderator Mentat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    I've not read about a toad's warts suddenly growing; but the leg swelling could be sign of an injury or bacterial issue. Both cases will probably require taking frog to a herp veterinary for x-rays or skin cultures.

    Agree with Victor that the temperature sounds a bit low for a tropical species. Also, unless you test your water for the presence of chloramines and heavy metals, myself would recommend threat it with Seachem Prime. Good luck !
    Remember to take care of the enclosure and it will take care of your frog !​

  6. #5
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Dug really deep on the net and read about bacterial infections - took a closer look at Pig and his irritated glands and discovered that the swollen glands are filled with thick, yellow puss and his foot is still slightly swelling

    So I'm making an emergency medi-tank, and will transform his tank tomorrow into a medi-tank (his permanent tank keeps the humidity better, I'm keeping it now at 80-85 degrees, although the website I found about the species, before buying him, say they prefer high humidity, but it's not lifeline necessary for them, since they also live in varied humidity levels).

    And tomorrow I'm writing the online net doctor and contacting a reptile doctor here in Denmark - I know he has experience in amfibians, so I hope he can help with an antibiotic treatment.

    Everything seems to indicate that Pig had this infection when I bought him.... :.l Luckily I don't seem to have transferred it to Birger and Louis by touch of both watertanks or whatever (Pig has been quarenteened pr. principle and lives permanently in his own tank).

    Totally sucks.... Hope it's not too late

  7. #6
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    (80-85% humidity, not degrees)

  8. #7
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Well guys, we went to the vet yesterday and to make a long story short, the vet was very nice and it is most likely bad news - but with some luck, could be allright.

    First of all I would like to strongly advise everyone to NEVER buy an amfibian of ANY kind from an expo, unless you know the exact conditions it has been captive bred under (or kept if wild caught) - ESPECIALLY not if it's from Germany!!

    I know many deals end up lucky, but I seem to have caught the sort straw and I'm pt. very pissed off and very sad...


    - My vet examined Pigs skin and said all indications were that he's got Mycobacteria, which can possibly also infect humans. He could have caught another bacterial infection, that's not so serious as Mycobacteria, but since it seemed to be transferred by his bloodstream, and he came from Germany, all shots were that that's what he's got. Bad news is that Germany apparently has a major break out of Mycos in their amfibian groups (I had no idea... ) and 'cause it's so spread out, most of the Myco strains from Germany are resistant to almost all sorts of antibiotics (!!) Toad kidneys are very weak towards chemicals such as antibiotics, so you can't even try different types of antibiotics, with the toads chances of surviving being very high.

    IF I wanted to test Pig positive from Myco (which would only prove he has exactly that) it would cost me around 553$, where Pig is put in full sedation and a test is surgically taken. In case of Mycos, there is pt. no cure.

    - The only good news here, is that she's seen a few individuals from Germany, that have developed a form of resistancy towards Mycos, where you can beat down the bacteria into a dormant state (it'll never disappear - sort of like herpes), IF kept in a completely sterile enviroment and by strenghtening their immune system, and then the animal can live a good life - but will always be a carrier for Mycos and will have to be kept alone and be kept under strict supervision, if ever put back on topsoil, for instance.
    - Luck in a million... It's a mild sort of bacteria and Pig will get well with the salve we've been given.


    So.... I'm SO f****** pissed off at the vendor for selling me this animal!! I care for Pig now, but fact is the bacteria might still evolve and I might have to put him down at the vets, to prevent his body rotting up, due to this bacteria.

    - Right now I'm taking it all the way and keeping him in a sterile enviroment, spending 30 minutes every night cleaning everything out with antibacterial treatment from the vets, with a plastic plant, calmness and good news is his hand is not so swollen anymore, he's still eating, soaking, not lethargic at all. Bad news is he's reddish under his legs and his right theigh is till swollen...

    BEST news is that Louis and Birger are not showing signs of anything (thank God!) and seem to be A.OK. And Pig seems to be okay with a plastic plant and his new surroundings - will change his beloved coconut house out tomorrow, with a newly bought plastic bowl.


    Well.... enough ranting from me.... NEVER buy from a breeder you don't know about! So far it's cost me 160$ and a broken heart

  9. #8
    Ratz
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Hello,

    so sorry to hear that

    I havent heard yet that Mycobacteriosis is a major Problem in Amphibians and especially not in Germany. It is for sure a problem with ornamental fish. The risk of an infection as a Human is very low unless you are immunodeficient. All I got from my fishes during my childhood was a nasty skin rash.

    I asked an expert in Amphibian diseases about Mycobacteriosis because I thought it is dangerous to have ornamental fishes and Amphibians in the same room. He told me that it's a secondary problem which only occurs under suboptimal conditions, if the animals already have other problems.

    If it is a Mykobacteriosis, I would suggest to keep the toad under the best posible conditions to strengthen his immune system. But be also aware that experienced Herp Vets are very rare and that he or she didnt explicitely test for it. Were skin swabs taken to exclude other causes before suggesting a surgery under full sedation??

    I hope you can save him, doesnt look bad on the pictures, except for the swellings.
    Last edited by Ratz; April 2nd, 2014 at 05:48 PM. Reason: corrections

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    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Okay. She only told me that she's treated alot of individuals, that were bought from Germany, which had this disease. (She has Agatoads herself privately).

    No she didn't swab first - I'm not sure which tests she can do at her space, but she said if he was to be tested for it, he'd need to be sedated, for one of the puss filled glands to be opened to extract enough infected material to determine, if that's his condition. In DK she's the most experienced herp vet I can come by and she lives about an hour away from me. She specialises in reptiles but has experience in amfibians.

    Allright. Thank you, I wasn't aware. He was a bit malnourished when I bought him, and pr. what I've read up on it, it can come from contaminated food or water, especially if the animal is underfed, stressed out and kept in not propper conditions. When I bought him he was delivered in a small, plastic box with wet toiletpaper, that he'd been on all day during the expo, without any hiding places or means of shadow. So he might aswell have been a carrier from home, or caught an airborne version directly at the expo.

    Thank you - me too :./ The underside of his theighs are reddish, which concerns me most, but he's eating, active and poops as he's supposed too.
    Pt. I keep him in sterile conditions, but he has a cave, a water bowl and a big, bushy plastic plant to hide in and feel normal in, so the tank isn't bare.
    Last edited by victorsgrace; April 3rd, 2014 at 01:09 AM. Reason: t

  11. #10
    Ratz
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Sorry for my scepticism in the post before - it sounds more reasonable with your further explanations. I hope you can keep the diseases on a low level. I know thats possible with fishes, but (luckily) dont have experiences with Mycobacterioses in Amphibians.

    I have seen the vendors displays in Hamm, this should be no problem for a healthy animal, if its for one or two days. More problematic are suboptimal conditions and stress over long time periods. It is always a risk to buy Amphibians at expos or in the pet trade as you never know how the animal were kept before. Best is to go to a breeder directly.

    Wish you good luck!

  12. #11
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    It's allright and duely noted. I was sceptical myself at first (by the way, I mailed her earlier today and she told me the reason she didn't wan't to swob is that both testing methods are exspensive for her 'cause they send their tests to America and that the swobbing method is not as presisce and might not give her enough of a sample to conclusively estimate the bacteria culture).

    Okay. Well I know that, then. I have no clue of how he's been housed "at home", but he was close to the undernourished side, when I bought him. For future means I think I'll anyway bring a real, clean fauna box with me to transport any future aquirements home.
    - Yes. I agree now

    Thank you! I'll post updates here now and then. We'll see how it goes.

  13. #12
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Hey guys. An update on Pig: he is doping allright and we're keeping the infection down as best we can.

    However he hasn't pooped for close to three weeks now :/ I've tried Warming baths for up to an hour (temperated and not hurtfull to him, ofcourse) but nothings going on. There is a definite risk that his infection already is so severe that it's damaged his organs, so this could be why.

    He is still feeding well and not lethargic at all.

    Do any of you have any other advise to make him go?

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    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    - Nobody has any advise?

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    100+ Post Member Raya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    First of all, sorry to hear about your toad being ill.

    Over at the pacman-section alot of owners with constipated frogs give them a warm bath with a few drops of honey in it. That should supposedly work but I've never tried myself.
    Best of luck!

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    100+ Post Member kueluck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    I've found that feeding wax worms or night crawlers seem to help "move" things along. So sad to read about your toad and I just want to say thank you for not giving up on Pig. All toads deserve a keeper like you.
    Rest in peace Rosie 5-31-12
    Rest in peace Rufus 2-7-14
    Rest in peace Morph 8-14-15


  17. #16
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Hey guys.

    Thank you for the kind words! <3 Allright - nightcrawlers or waxworms! Good to know.

    I still care alot about him and he seems to be otherwise doing fine. I found out about the honey baths on the net yesterday and tried giving him one for 30-40 mins and he tried to pass something, but no luck. I will give him a small earth worm from a forest area tonight and try again with a honey bath. Luckily he seems to be otherwise doing allright and is still feeding and not lethargic, so I just hope it's not his organs and just something he has a bit of trouble with.

    Will keep you updated...

  18. #17

    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Dear!
    I have this swallen bumps, especially close to the glands also with 3 of my Alvarius toads. And they also have this thick yellow pus coming out of them if punktured. The toads are all doing good, eating and all. They just hate to be treated, so I keep it down to the minimum.

    So here is what I do.
    I open the infection with a needle to let the pus out. Then I use a pipette with of PIMAFIX / MELAFIX (each one 4 drops) in water (a little 10ml bottle) to desinfect the wound (apply a little in the hole, too).
    I also use 8-10drops of each in their pool water bowl with 4l of water, daily (I change the water daily)

    I got to MELAFIX as safe, all natural (but super successful) treatment from the toad eye infection thread here (http://www.frogforum.net/toads/27674-please-help.html).
    And I bought the PIMAFIX since I had to wait too long for the MELAFIX and it turns out that its a good addition, cause it has "anti-fungal effects", too.

    I never went to a vet cause I don't trust doctors that much (last time being at a doc myself is 15 yrs ago), I believe in natural healing powers and in LOVE. And I didn't want to stress the toads by bringing them to a vet.
    And this treatment with the MELAFIX and PIMAFIX seems to be just fine. Its natural and effective. It doesn't harm the toads and does the job. And overall its also very cheap. (Amazon 10-12 Euros)

    And it has definately something to do with immune power of the toad. The smallest one, the little girl Sue had it the worse (one big spot which I recognized too late and which had a LOT of pus in it) She even stopped eating cause I didn't recognize the infection. But surely is now back to normal.
    And the smaller guy, Kermit, has a bit more than Gonzo the biger male. My big mamma, Ellie doesn't have anything at all, she's big and healthy, so guess she has a very good working immune system.

    So you're not alone!!! Its not that much of a deal, whatever bacteria it is. DEF. helping is NOT TO WORRY that much. Send him LOVE, send him good thoughts, trust in nature that everything will be alright whatever the end will be. And don't loose faith, don't be angry with anyone. YOU NEVER KNOW. Only life knows. And its not about blaming anyone. Its about seeing the teaching behind it.
    If an animal or a human dies its the way it is meant to be. Thats life. All form comes and goes.

    And for now, get yourself PIMAFIX and MELAFIX, that will help and is all natural.

    LOVE, olli

  19. #18
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Dear Pilz,

    Thank you very much for this information! This is very helpful! I'm glad to
    Know that I'm not alone and that there is a kind of treatmeant I can use,
    That is natural and might work.

    I agree with your viewpoint and I do not carry any anger anymore. I learned it might
    Aswell be him alone so now I just try to help him. Although I keep him alone to
    Not infect the others and just want him to go to the bathroom.

    Thank you for your words. I can really use them.

  20. #19
    100+ Post Member victorsgrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Pig pooped tonight!! LOL I've never been so happy to see a poop before, hahaha.

  21. #20
    100+ Post Member Raya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Pig ill? :.l

    Great news! I'm happy for you

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