Concerning Behaviour in both of my American Bullfrogs

[Gnag the nameless]

Recently, both of my American Bullfrogs have been acting very worrying.

Both have been seeming to 'faint' after consuming a considerable amount of crickets, and having woken up several seconds later. That, or they've been having trouble consuming food. Gnag has been not eating half the amount he regularly does, and the both of them have been intermittently getting tetany. I've been feeding them Calcium dusted crickets whenever I can, but it seems they'll only eat when they regain their tetany. Last feeding, Gnag showed a sign of irritation after consuming a cricket. He kind of hissed/wheezed, opened his mouth like he was in pain, and then shut it, before swallowing the cricket.

As for possible causes, recently the weather has been fluctuating and changing rapidly, with it being at 15 Celsius (59 Fahrenheit) to 30 Celsius (86 Fahrenheit), changing sometimes day to day, even going from near freezing in the morning to like a desert later on in the day abruptly. Also, a month or two back, I was forced to take moss from my garden, thoroughly clean it, and put it in both of their tanks. This was before Gnag first fainted whilst eating a Hornworm, which I assume he took the wrong way down, though he's eaten such before.

I've seen Gnag faint three times so far, once a month or so ago, once about three weeks ago, and once a week or so back. He has also been eating very little as well as intermittently contracting tetany. Bumpy, on the other hand, I've witnessed faint once, tonight, and whilst his feeding amount is judged by his weight and plumpness, it seems he's been on the lower end of eating as of late. I've been trying to fight off the tetany with every time they eat, using calcium-dusted crickets almost every feeding. Gnag's been eating in a every 3-5 days, and at most 8 crickets per feeding.

I've asked my friends for help, and some have said it's to do with the fact the both of them are growing a considerable amount this year. Others believe it's to do with the erratic weather. Another theory that I think is the cause is that something introduced by the moss from outside has somehow caused irritation in the throats of both of my frogs, causing the fainting.

Anyone have any idea of what's going on? I'm planning to consult a Vet sometime soon on this, it's really concerning me.

[Gnag the nameless]

Thought I'd update this and say Gnag did his wheezing thing randomly again tonight, whilst sitting on his moss. It's been a hot day, and earlier today he acted quite spastic before spending the rest of his day sitting calmly on his moss. No unusual behaviour from Bumpy at the moment. Going to try and feed Bumpy, and wait till tomorrow for Gnag. Chorus frogs and Sals are eating tonight.

[Ted]

Sounds like your problems started with the moss you put in and then those hot days.why were you forced to put moss in your tank? Anyway ,85 degrees f. and warmer is very hot for a non tropical frog.they get to this temperature in nature but they have places to go to relieve themselves from the heat where in captivity they may not have that luxury.

[Gnag the nameless]

The moss I'd bought from the store had started an algae bloom in both tanks so I replaced it with moss from outside. In the past, I'd always used moss from my garden after thoroughly rinsing it for all of my tanks except my Chorus Frogs tank. Never had a problem from it before.

Also, I bought a new Reptile Water Conditioner a little bit before adding the moss. Zilla Aquatic Reptile Water Conditioner. Think this has anything to do with it?

As for the state of the frogs, my big Gnag isn't losing weight fast. He's still nice and chubby, but I'm worried as to how long this will stay. Since the last odd behaviour, nothing unusual. Bumpy is odd, he's slim one day, plump the next. But he's always been that way, and appears to be eating, which is good. Apart from lethargy, no unusual behavior from Gnag.

And, I keep the water in Gnag's tank cool. If he needed a place to cool off, he could go under his cave or stay out on the water. Right now, his regular spot to sit is out of the water, on the driftwood. He'll go down to a lower level of moist moss every so often. The spot he regularly sits in is like a basking spot, it's where he might get the most sunlight.

[Ted]

Can a frog develope an allergy?

[Mentat]

Hi Caspian, I'm very sorry your frogs are not doing well . Described symptoms appear a neurological issue. Could be triggered by an electrolyte imbalance, temperature shock, or even a contaminant in that garden moss. Since timely correcting problem is important; myself would go for all possible causes.

1. Remove moss and replace everything exposed to it. That means removing all substrate, decor, and replacing everything that can't be washed and rinsed.

2. Can you move the frogs to an area that is not exposed to outsides temperature swings? An automatic controller like Zoo Med HygroTherm Humidity and Temperature Controller can also help keep the temperature/humidity parameters more stable.

2. Use unflavored Pedialyte or a similar baby electrolyte to prepare a 1 part Pedialyte to 9 parts 80F dechlorinated water solution and give frogs a 20-30 minute bath in frog chin deep water. Can use a critter keeper or plastic bowl with a holed up top. Cover with towel to keep warm and reduce stress. Can do this before feeding frogs to help perk them up.

3. Please describe your enclosure water section and the water source/type. Test your water for presence of ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Also, check your dechlorinator is not expired and ensure you do not overdose it.

4. Check Ca and vitamin supplements are not expired and use according to these schedules, since overdosing can be as bad as under dosing: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html. If you can get Repashy's Calcium Plus locally, can use with every feeding with no issues.

Hope this helps and let us know results of water tests. Good luck !

[Heatheranne]

Hi Caspian, I agree with Carlos.

Definitely also check your water. After testing I would do a water exchange.

Have you also seen twitching like movements?

I'll be following along.

[Gnag the nameless]

I don't know if it's the moss. I've used the moss since they were little froglets, and I only started using store-bought this year until I encountered the bacteria bloom problem and switched back to Garden moss. Honestly, I doubt it's the moss but I'll still consider it a large possibility.

I will admit I use 1 and 1/4 to 1 and 1/2 a ml instead of the required 1 ml for the Water Conditioner sometimes for fear of underdosing. Do you think that overdosing may be causing the problems? Also, I bought this new Water Conditioner I believe on the same day I added the new moss. Somewhere very close, anyways. The Water Conditioner is Zilla Aquatic Reptile Water Conditioner.

As for dusting, I use Zoomed Repti-Cal and Repashy SuperVite. Both were bought under 2 months ago, as was the Water Conditioner.

As for weather, last few days I've taken efforts to keep my room under control. It's been roughly 16-20 Celsius in my room as of the past few days, and I've been keeping it that way. I can ensure it will stay that way, too. However, Gnag's condition only seems to be growing worse. Bumpy appears to be eating, and has not fainted since the last time but he seems to be a bit tired in the way he sits. No tetany from him, though. Gnag's tetany is back, however, and he refused to eat any crickets tonight and two nights ago and is losing weight. He acts very spastic, trying to swim underneath his filter, jumping around, and is afraid of me, which is extremely unusual for him. Otherwise, he sits on his moss stand or the driftwood.

I'll try and pick up some pedialyte soon. Shouldn't be difficult. Done the process before so I'll do it again.

For the water section, basically, it's typically about 3-4 inches deep, and has smooth pond stones for the bottom, and a Fluval U2 Underwater Filter at the side. Beside that, there's normally water reeds but I removed them because Gnag would sit beside them and not see the crickets when he was still eating a bit. There's also several fake lily pads, three, drifting about. Also, it extends to underneath his driftwood cave. The water itself comes from my taps, and I fill up 4l milk jugs with tap water before adding conditioner, shaking, and adding to the tank.

Also, I don't know how significant this is but I spotted an orange mushroom growing off of the driftwood a while back, which I believe I got rid of since I cannot see it anymore.

I'll try to get the equipment to test the water, and begin doing more frequent water changes with only the required amount of Conditioner.

As for the twitching question, that's how I tell if either frogs have tetany. Right now, Gnag has it but Bumpy doesn't appear to.

[Heatheranne]

Very strange, indeed.

It's hard to tell for sure exactly why.

Do you thoroughly rinse the moss before adding it?

How often are your water changes?

For now, remove them both to a hospital tank. Moist paper towels as substrate. Large water bowl. Try using the right amount of dechlorinator just to be safe. Lets detox them just in case it's a water issue. Change their water daily in the bowl. Cover the back and 2 sides of the tank with a background so they feel safe.

Get new calcium with vitamin D3. It could be that the calcium is washed off of the crickets if they enter the water before they eat them. Any chance you could take them to a vet for a calcium gluconate injection? It needs to be vet dosed. Or could you get the Flukers liquid calcium supplement? Avoid the Repashy for a couple days. it may have a small dose of phosphorus in it which is the opponent to calcium. It is needed in minute amounts, but lets try and get the tetany to resolve first.

Judging by their behavior, I'm thinking this is more of a calcium deficiency issue. A UVB light 2.0 is also helpful, but also gives off heat. I have one in Bully's tank in the top corner so he may bask under it if he chooses. He does once in awhile. It is in the non-water side of his tank. It allows him to choose if he needs it. Keep it in an area that it will not heat them up too much. Only use it about 2-4 hours a day. Overheating them will cause more problems so if it will heat up the tank too much than do not use it.

I forget, what size tank are yours in?

I'm sorry your frogs are having this trouble. Be prepared for a vet visit if they do not improve in a day or so. The passing out says whatever the issue is its getting to be too much for them to handle. I'd feel awful if you came home to deceased frogs. I'd try this for a day. Hopefully they'll soak and then eat the calcium crickets. If not I'd take them for a vet assessment.

Hang in there! It's so tough when our babies don't feel well.

(I myself just adopted a baby wild Amer bullfrog and 2 Northern green frogs that the pet store had in with firebelly toads . They are currently detoxing and then they will be tested for parasites, ranavirus, and chytrid. I'll 'beef' them up a bit. If all goes well and they are illness -free they will be set free. Poor babies.)

I wish you luck and will continue to help. Please keep us updated.

Do a 50% water exchange on their actual home while they're in quarantine. Test the water quality before the water change and again a few hours after the water settles. Hopefully they'll be able to return to their home soon.

[Gnag the nameless]

(Going to label sections so it's easier for you to spot what you need.)

Update:

Doing big water changes today. Taking out 4/5 of all the water in Gnag's tank then placing fresh water with proper amount of Conditioner in. Done that two times now, with a third time for removing specific points where gunk has built up but with taking out less water. His tank looks a heck of a lot cleaner than it did before, as does the water. Changed all the moss in Gnag's tank. I'm afraid I used Garden moss, but I rinsed and washed it 3x so I'm hoping that cleared it of any potential detrimental components. Will try to feed him tonight.

Also, did a 3/5 water change to Bumpy's tank. Will switch moss soon, maybe later today.

There was a significant buildup of rotting matter behind Gnag's cave, filtered that out. Also cleaned his filter, which had a big buildup of gunk and remains of crickets. Will pick up pedialyte and pH Ammonia tester on weekend, maybe tomorrow if I get the chance. I'm hoping the aforementioned actions may help detox Gnag if that's the problem.

Hospital Tank
As for hospital tank, I'll try and pick up something large enough for Gnag soon. Bumpy, I'm unsure if he'll need it (Look at lower section). I'll still buy two separate containers, though, because I have little doubt the pair of them might attack each other if put together, or at least Gnag would attack. He's a very aggressive frog when he's not sick, and when Bumpy or the Chorus frogs croak he often immediately comes to the glass and croaks over them until they stop. However, will still place Gnag in quarantine when I can get a container for it, which will likely be on Saturday. I plan for that to be the day when we buy the pedialyte, pH testers, and other supplies as I am free that day.

Also, if symptoms do not improve in a few days (If you two could suggest a timeframe for me, I'd appreciate it. I don't want to wait too long or set off too early) I'm reconstructing Gnag's tank and placing him in quarantine. Only worry is that quarantine will stress Gnag more.

Bumpy's Behaviour/Bumpy and Hospital Tank
Onto Bumpy. Problem with the hospital tank and the Bumpsters, though, is that Bumpy has always been very difficult to feed. Even in his own set up, I can only place the crickets in and hope he eats them. Recently, I've found a method where he can eat them from inside his cave and that seems to be working. Also, Bumpy seems to have bulked up in mass and shows no odd signs since the last black-out, and is sitting normally. He seems completely normal. I fed him some Vitamin Dusted crickets a few days back. Maybe that's linked to the problem? Will do water changes and moss changes in his tank nonetheless though.

Gnag's Behaviour/Thoughts on Calcium problem
Gnag, on the other hand, seems calm today but his legs are still twitching and he is not eating. He is also losing weigh but is not skinny yet. I think getting a Calcium Gluconate injection may be better than the Liquid Calcium supplement because I cannot imagine how difficult and stressing force-feeding Gnag might be. He's a big, aggressive frog, over 5 inches snout to vent now. Also, if anything, I underdid the Vitamin Dusting for Gnag more than anything.

Tank Size
Gnag's tank is a 33 Gallon, Bumpy's a 34 Gallon. Gnag's is wider but Bumpy's is longer. Both have similar design, but Bumpy's is more simplistic with more cover.

Analyzing Info
Actually, neither frogs have passed out when I'm around for the past few days. Also, I think we should analyze this closely.

1. The Passing out first occurred when Gnag ate a Hornworm vertically using Tongs, as in it was eaten Hotdog instead of Hamburger style which is his norm (for lack of a better way to put it.) He struggled with it, opened his mouth whilst spitting it out, took in a deep breath of air, and passed out. Seconds later, he woke up, frantically hopped around, and then acted normal for two weeks. I assumed it was nothing but him taking the Hornworm down the wrong way, and a friend of mine suggested it was due to the fact that since he's growing so much his digestive system has yet to catch up.

Then, Gnag choked whilst eating a male cricket two, maybe three weeks later, wings and all, before the same reaction. The third time, he hopped towards his moss platform after a meal of twelve crickets, and blacked out after I heard a "Wheee...." noise, like something expelling air from it's lungs or like a balloon popping, though not as dramatic. He awoke moments later. Lastly, last week, he ate a Calcium dusted cricket, hissed, and seemed to keep his mouth gaping with the cricket in his mouth for a moment before swallowing it and eating no more after that. Gnag's tetany keeps reappearing 3-6 days after the last Calcium Dusted feeding. He's not eating anymore.

Bumpy has only blacked out once to my knowledge. He did it randomly, either when moving or when eating a cricket, and then awoke moments later. Apart from battling tetany, which is now gone from his system, no worrying signs from him. I also fed him Vitamin Dusted crickets a few days back.


2. I do more water changes on Bumpy's tank because his water discolors more often for some reason. Gnag's tank, I change the water every week or week and a half, sometimes two weeks because his tank's filter has always been reliable. However, when I cleaned it today it was very full of gunk, which is now washed out. Also, there was the buildup of rotting matter at the back of his tank which is now cleaned.

Notes/Other

I've discussed this with some of my friends, who are also animal lovers, and one of my friends thinks it's linked to the heat. Another believes maybe some kind of bug or virus has caused throat irritation through an infection. However, the former of those two theories doesn't really explain the fainting as the first two times Gnag fainted it was moderate weather, not too hot or cold. And the second one doesn't explain the fainting as a whole.

I'm curious, could an imbalance in the pH or ammonia, nitrates and/or nitrites, or in electrolytes really cause this behavior? I've never heard of something like what my frogs are experiencing before. Also, I'm really interested about how the behavior in Bumpy stopped after I fed him the Vitamin dusted crickets. That might be vital if we can get Gnag to eat again.

Actually, I bought the Calcium when I saw that Gnag had tetany again. That was a few weeks ago. The Vitamin Dusting, on the other hand, is relatively new, maybe a month and a half old? Two months. Around that range.

Nearly forgot to mention this, but I fed my Crickets Dandelions and Dandelion stems from outside a few weeks back for some time. Now, only bread and lettuce alongside strawberries, cucumber, etc. . I'm trying to add in every potentially significant detail possible to help us solve this and figure out what caused the problem.

I know what you mean when I read last night that it might be a neurological problem it just sapped the strength out of me immediately. Took the day off today because I just didn't have the strength to go to school. And the first time Gnag passed out, I thought he was dead and it was one of the most horrible moments I've ever experienced in my life. Having sick animals is tough

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it. And, I'll let you guys know as things progress on. Let's hope for the best.

[Heatheranne]

Caspian, any chance you'd want to share this with Dr. Frye also? He's very good at determining problems with them.

I'm trying to think of every possible cause.

Tetany, swallowing, fainting. I believe they are all related.

My current thoughts, though I am not a vet of course,

Tox out syndrome due to water and tetany, though it sounds as though you're supplementing well, when they eat. If these are the causes, the water exchanges and calcium replacements should help if they eat.

Still, I'd love to hear what you vet thinks.

[Gnag the nameless]

Last time I tried contacting Dr. Frye, I couldn't because he cannot give out medical advice to people outside of the USA So, I'm afraid that's a no-can-do. But, if given the chance, I'd share this to Dr. Frye with no hesitation or second thoughts.

This might second your statement, but Gnag seems a bit perked up though still a little spastic right now. He lunged at a cricket earlier, unfortunately he missed and hasn't shown reaction to them since but if he's going for them that's a good sign in itself. I'm hoping the fresh, clean water will help detox him, if the cause is what we suspect it is. Hopefully, he'll start fully eating tomorrow, and then we can solve this issue. Also, I'm kind of glad I keep him quite plump normally, because it seems like it's paying off right now by having him absorb his fat reserves whilst he's lethargic. Of course, I want him to keep eating but I just thought I'd mention that.

Same for me on the Vet thing, but unfortunately in the past I've experienced difficulty contacting my Vet. Despite that, he's helped me solve what seemed like a big ordeal with Gnag before (small white on Gnag's back spot due to shedding skin abnormality), so he could indeed prove extremely useful.

Picking up Pedialyte tomorrow, and pH testers as well as the Calcium supplement you mentioned if I can get it.

I've been monitoring Bumpy, and he shows no abnormal signs. Chorus frogs and Sals are good too.

Thanks for all the help.

[Gnag the nameless]

Just as I think things are getting better, Gnag chokes again don't know if he was eating a cricket but I saw him squirming around with his mouth open and eyes shut before he went limp. Picked him up and held him above water before placing him on his filter as he slowly recovered, began breathing again and opened his eyes as well as regaining strength in his limbs to hold him up. Also noticed his area around his waist, touching his thighs, was twitching as he was reawakening.

It's so horrible to see him like that, with his mouth open and squirming around

I was thinking, do you think that he might be having seizures? Also, whenever he faints it seems to be during or when he's active.

Did some research, and I think this post contains an example of what we're experiencing. If so, we need to act fast and get some Calcium into my Gnag's blood.

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...his-death.html
And this one:
http://www.frogforum.net/toads/3087-...-question.html

[Gnag the nameless]

Going to go to the Vet today to set up an appointment and explain the situation. Going to ask for a Calcium Gluconate injection to be done, and also hear the Vet's opinion.

What it said in one of the two above posts fits Gnag's exact condition. All but one of the times Gnag's seizured/fainted was during or after him eating and moving around.

Tetany refers to muscular spasms that can resemble seizures and that are often induced by excitement or handling.

TETANY definition: clinical neurological syndrome characterized by muscular twitching and cramps and (when severe) seizures; associated with calcium deficiency (hypoparathyroidism) or vitamin D deficiency or alkalosis.

[Strider18]

Hoping your frog feels better! Just watch out some of the medications can be pretty powerful! Good luck.

[Heatheranne]

Yes, I think the fainting episodes are like seizures. Perhaps a focal seizure. I'm glad to hear you're going to the vet .

[Gnag the nameless]

Yeah, today we're gonna go to make an appointment and hear his opinion in about half an hour or so. Will tell you what he said when we get back.

What is a focal seizure?

[Gnag the nameless]

I'm back from the Vet.

First off, told him everything. He said no to the Calcium Gluconate, due to the extreme pain it causes, and believes that it is not a Calcium related problem Gnag is facing since he is an adult frog.

From what I've told him, he that Gnag's illness is either Cardiovascular, to do with his Heart, or to do with his intestines, and all related to overeating. Either the eating has put too much pressure on his lungs and weakened them, it's weakened his heart, or his intestines have been clogged He's instructed me to place Gnag in a hospital tank and to try and feed him. He also wants me to take a video of one of Gnag's seizures, which I really, really do not want to do However, he said that he needs to know if Gnag will poop, so if Gnag hasn't pooped in a week, I need to return to him.

It's certainly true I have not seen Gnag poop for a LONG time, so I'm hoping that it's intestinal. And thus, probably curable. Hoping for the best for my Gnag in these tough days

[Gnag the nameless]

Gnag's eaten five crickets tonight, one Vitamin dusted. Gonna pick up new Calcium dusting tomorrow. No seizuring from Gnag so far. However, his lower tummy seems to be twitching a lot, alongside his feet. It's making me very worried but at least he ate without a seizure.

[Gnag the nameless]

I think this may be linked to the Calcium. Bumpy just fainted after going a Calcium dusted cricket, so I'm going to buy fresh Calcium Dusting tomorrow. Couldn't today 'cause I stayed up late making sure Gnag did not seizure after those crickets.

Most of the times Gnag's blacked out, he's had Calcium Dusted crickets. I think, all but the first time. And then when I feed him or Bumpy the Vitamin Dusted or non Calcium Custed crickets, they're good. I don't think it's a coincidence.