Pacman bone disease and calcium defeciency

[limnologist]

So who thinks they know why so many pet pacmans get bone disease or calcium deficiency related problems so often?
I shouldnt need to say it is rather uncommon for a frog in the wild to die from calcium deficiency or bone disease.

anyone wanna guess?

[Frogman1031]

Maybe it is because due to the ease of the pacman frogs' care, many people forget to dust their food with calcium or give them UVA/UVB lighting.

[limnologist]

Maybe it is because due to the ease of the pacman frogs' care, many people forget to dust their food with calcium or give them UVA/UVB lighting.

well....sure. but thats not what im trying to point out.

[DesertHeat]

Wild pacs eat a far more varied diet which allows for greater micronutrients uptake. Those in captivity on the other hand are generally fed a staple diet of whatever feeder is easiest for the owner to procure. Staple feeders, depending on gut loading, are generally not nutritionally complete. Which is why vitamin and calcium dusting is required.

Unfortunately most pet shop clerks are only vaguely aware of the care needs of the animals they sell so new owners may not receive the information they need to properly care for their new pet.

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[Hypnotic]

DesertHeat pretty much summed it up. One of the most popular diets recommended by petstores is crickets, and crickets contain so little calcium, as a source of calcium they aren't worth feeding. Combine that with a lack or insufficient dusting, and your pet will get MBD.

[limnologist]

DesertHeat pretty much summed it up. One of the most popular diets recommended by petstores is crickets, and crickets contain so little calcium, as a source of calcium they aren't worth feeding. Combine that with a lack or insufficient dusting, and your pet will get MBD.

crickets only contain very few vitamins because we don't nourish them correctly.

It is possible to raise a perfectly healthy frog on these three insects:

the cricket-

the mealworm- (and beetle.....I dont really count that as a fourth insect)

the waxworm- (or superworm since the fat content is pretty much the same)

everyone warns you not to feed these insects consistently to your pets due to vitamin deficiency, believe it or not, if you properly nourish the insects first, you need not any kind of vitamin supplement (as long as the frog gets some fresh sunlight of course)

[limnologist]

you see, mass producers of our pets dont care that much about the nutritional value of the animals food as long as the insects are alive and the animals are alive. Believe it or not, mass produced insects are fed on dung, rotted greens, scraps, and lots of brown materials (IE, leaves, hay, and even paper) all the food items have been genetically modified and all have high carbon value stunting the nitrogen uptake of the insects. The insects have very little nutritional value, striking belief that people need calcium supplements, vitamins, special food mixes for gut-loading the insects, and that the common pet store insects arent all that healthy for your pet. most of that is untrue to a large extent, "the key is the roots" you have to start with the food you feed to the prey, feed them fresh fruits and vegetables, maybe some fish for insects like crickets.

as long as the feeder insects are healthy, your frog wont need supplements. And even though you CAN use only three feeder types, it is healthy to vary the food items. get to know your pet, do your research, learn about it's natural habitat and its neighbors. the more you know, the more you can accommodate to it's needs and make it's diet more natural.
If you live on a lot of land, take the advantage of a large natural supple of insects! (as long as your safe and careful about pesticides and parasites). If you have time, breed your own insects and feed them healthy fresh vegetables and fruits. It would be even better if you just so happened to own a vegetable garden and fed the insects from that too!

I've been keeping herps for 10 years, pacmans for six and ive never had any calcium problems, and ive never used any supplements. I breed and feed my insects (mealworms, waxworms, superworms, red-wigglers) a mix of garden grown and store bought carrots, apples, potatoes, bananas, oranges, blueberries, strawberries, and broccoli.

[Hypnotic]

I do breed my own dubias, I mainly feed nightcrawlers and dubias, with an occasional mouse or some other treats. Breeding crickets is out of the question, I think they are disgusting and require way too much upkeep, and would rather buy them and dust them.
My feeders here are mainly fed oranges, apples, bananas, carrots and chicory, and always have acces to dry dogfood, because I've heard it's an excellent source of proteines. Crickets at times are often fed leftovers from my geckos enclosure. (crested gecko diet)
I always have known gutloading is very important, but din'd know that it could actually replace supplements.
My animals don't get sunlight, I only have nocturnal animals here, and I use TL lights to light up all my enclosures. While some people would argue with that, I strongly agree with the idea of nocturnal animals not requiring UVB or sunlight, but offcourse, I also supplement to make up for that.

[GrifTheGreat]

crickets only contain very few vitamins because we don't nourish them correctly.

It is possible to raise a perfectly healthy frog on these three insects:

the cricket-

the mealworm- (and beetle.....I dont really count that as a fourth insect)

the waxworm- (or superworm since the fat content is pretty much the same)

everyone warns you not to feed these insects consistently to your pets due to vitamin deficiency, believe it or not, if you properly nourish the insects first, you need not any kind of vitamin supplement (as long as the frog gets some fresh sunlight of course)

All these are fine to feed. Mealworms and Superworms only need be sparingly offered not for reasons of nutrition, but for reasons of exoskeleton density. The chitin of those two larvae are undigestable and in large quantities cause impaction.

Crickets are just dirty feeders, but are fine as food for the frogs even if nutritionaly lacking. Even gutloaded tbey are severely lacking. They should be dusted with supplements even when gutloaded.

Earthworms and Night Crawlers are possibly the best and most nutritionally balanced food for them. Calcium to phosphorus balance is excellent. Very easily digested and accepted by most frogs.

Diet is a large part of developemental issues with young frogs, but is not the sole culprit. Extra nutritions should always be considered. Especially in the form of dusting.

[DVirginiana]

My feeders get whatever my turtle doesn't eat vegetable-wise. Silversides also make a nice treat every few weeks for my pacman. They're a more concentrated source of protein than bugs, but don't have the high fat content and tendency to slow down the digestive tract that mice do. Plus, the strong smell seems to wake everyone in the room up. I can offer her a fish at any time of the day or night, and she's wide-awake and ready to attack the tongs.

[limnologist]

All these are fine to feed. Mealworms and Superworms only need be sparingly offered not for reasons of nutrition, but for reasons of exoskeleton density. The chitin of those two larvae are undigestable and in large quantities cause impaction.

Crickets are just dirty feeders, but are fine as food for the frogs even if nutritionaly lacking. Even gutloaded tbey are severely lacking. They should be dusted with supplements even when gutloaded.

Earthworms and Night Crawlers are possibly the best and most nutritionally balanced food for them. Calcium to phosphorus balance is excellent. Very easily digested and accepted by most frogs.

Diet is a large part of developemental issues with young frogs, but is not the sole culprit. Extra nutritions should always be considered. Especially in the form of dusting.

true, but I know people who spend big dollars to feed their pets anything but crickets, mealworms and superworms. they say they are too fattening, have too much chiton (which is slightly true), and can eat through a pet's stomach (still have yet to find a keeper who has experienced this).
I find that wild crickets are very nutritional, though if your not careful you can spread disease or parasites.

yup there is absolutely no harm in adding supplements if you can afford them

[GrifTheGreat]

Desertheat has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Sometimes too much line breeding can cause genetic abnormalities or make them genetically predisposed to certain diseases such as MBD, but is mostly in part to a nutritionally lacking diet

[limnologist]

Wild pacs eat a far more varied diet which allows for greater micronutrients uptake. Those in captivity on the other hand are generally fed a staple diet of whatever feeder is easiest for the owner to procure. Staple feeders, depending on gut loading, are generally not nutritionally complete. Which is why vitamin and calcium dusting is required.

Unfortunately most pet shop clerks are only vaguely aware of the care needs of the animals they sell so new owners may not receive the information they need to properly care for their new pet.

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also true, though if you handled things correctly, you could successfully raise a breeding quality frog on only three types of insects.

Im trying to get down to why we have to feed our frogs a calcium supplement. Im pretty sure there isnt calci-dust in their natural habitat lol

[DesertHeat]

Generally true, I mean look at how pet stores keep them. While I've never done it myself, my understanding is that most people who feed fish to their frogs on a regular basis raise the fish themselves to ensure they're as healthy and nutritious as possible.

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[limnologist]

Generally true, I mean look at how pet stores keep them. While I've never done it myself, my understanding is that most people who feed fish to their frogs on a regular basis raise the fish themselves to ensure they're as healthy and nutritious as possible.

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Its quite easy to do if you have at least 2 square feet of space to put a pond in. goldfish breed like theres no tomorrow!

[DVirginiana]

I wouldn't recommend goldfish as feeders... They contain high levels of Thiaminase, which causes neurological problems in many reptiles (and even in mammals if consumed exclusively over long periods, as documented in some European studies on mink).

The problem is that how it affects a reptile really seems to depend on the individual. Some people can feed goldfish and rosy red minnows (ability to produce red pigment is a big giveaway that the fish species contains Thiaminase) to a reptile for years, and see only very minor issues. Other reptiles can eat goldfish for a couple weeks and develop fatal problems. There hasn't been a lot of in-depth research on the effects of Thiaminase in reptiles, but it's enough of a problem that many breeders avoid feeders with Thiaminase. It's probably not something that will cause your animal to drop dead overnight, but it's definitely something to be wary of doing often.

Silversides bought frozen from petstores are about the safest feeder fish out there.

[limnologist]

Thats true, it requires knowledge of your pet and also a sort of intimate knowledge to know how your pet would react to something like that (tryin not to sound weird here haha) . I just use goldfish as fillers when my other feeders are busy breeding. I also use Endler's guppies, green sunfish, and common native shiners (missouri).

[chibikaie]

I would definitely be very cautious about thiaminase. Also, I'd like to point out that it's very easy to offer an animal what looks like a wonderful, complete diet, yet still have them develop subclinical nutritional deficiencies. They may pick out favorite foods that don't have enough of one vitamin or mineral, and over time they will develop problems. And because they creep up slowly, these problems can be hard to notice, and hard to diagnose. And you cannot treat if you don't know what's wrong. Unless a keeper has devoted a LOT of time, effort, and scientifically-based research into invertebrate nutrition, I would strongly advise playing it safe and dusting at least some of the food items that are being offered. Look at it as a form of insurance toward the health and well-being of your pet. For myself, not only am I new to herps, I am not very good at raising invertebrates. I think I'm actually averaging 50% deaths in nearly a dozen different species. I've got to be realistic, I just can't seem to take good care of anything that doesn't have a backbone. There is simply no way I'm going to trust that I've raised them appropriately and can forego supplemental dusting. (Plus, at the rate I'm going, I am seriously not saving ANY money by attempting to set up feeder colonies. Someone else could probably do it on a shoestring budget and have them thrive. But that person is not me!)

[limnologist]

sorry to here you are not having much success with inverts. they can be difficult sometimes haha. anyway, it all really depends on how much you know about your animal individually.