Mixing Species

[Chris Davis]

Hey everyone,

I have been told it is a bad idea to mix species (of amphibians) in a vivarium but this happens all of the time in nature. Of course it would be bad to mix predator and prey but there must be some sort of combination that would work well together. Has anyone experimented with this idea?

Thanks!

Chris

[Ted]

I think most of us has experimented with this and that's why it's generally concluded as a bad idea. "community amphibian tanks" just don't work for any real length of time and usually means something is going to die. In nature,there's plenty of room to get out of the way..but not in a controlled tank.also,,in nature there's a thing called a food chain..you really don't want to start a food chain tank.its always best to super cater to a single animals needs ...

[Chris Davis]

What about putting minnows or shrimp in a water feature? I've seen some vivs online with that. I've even seen African Clawed frogs in a viv with darts that had a water feature.

[kueluck]

Like Ted said, it's the space issue. Now if you want to set up a room say 12ft x 12ft x 8ft and have terrestrial frogs on the bottom and tree frogs on top this just might work. But your best bet is to go on craigslist and designate each viv to a specific type of amphibian or reptile.

[deranged chipmunk]

I'm sure it will come to no surprise to anyone when I say that I am a huge fan of multi species enclosure, IF they are done well and properly. Sadly, most are not. I have done a lot of research on this topic and spoke with a lot of very experienced people about it. There are several keys to doing it properly, with space being the number one thing that most people bring up. But I have seen small 29g multi species enclosures that were successful. I have also seen large enclosures that were not. A lot of it goes towards species selection and research. But much more important than anything else, and very few people talk about this, is experience. I will give an example:

About a year ago, I had planned on building an enclosure for mantellas and a small uroplatus gecko species. I had no doubt in my mind that I could build a very dynamic enclosure since I was working with a 125 gallon tank. I had broken sight lines designed in, water supply, and even a basking spot for the gecko. This was all fine and dandy, and then I realized, while talking with my friend who breeds uroplatus, that I had zero experience with this species. In fact, I had limited experience with the mantellas. How was I going to know something was wrong in the tank, if there was? I wouldn't. But a very experienced keeper would, and that was not me. So the plan got scrapped. I may build it a decade down the road, but lost likely, not.

My point being that only the most experienced in whatever animals are chosen to go into a multi species tank should even attempt it.

You asked about shrimp and minnows in a water feature, they should not be an issue. I have kept shrimp and fish in water feature with my frogs with no problems whatsoever. Just remember to take I to account the size of the fully grown fish and the amount of USABLE aquatic area. Just because you pour 8 gallons of water into a tank with a water feature does not mean you are working with that much usable area for the aquatic critters.

Just my $.02. Hope it helps.

[Chris Davis]

Thanks Bill! That does help. It'll be awhile till I give it a real go. I'm still just getting into hobby and I'm trying to do as much research as I can do!

[TKexotics]

I'm sure it will come to no surprise to anyone when I say that I am a huge fan of multi species enclosure, IF they are done well and properly. Sadly, most are not. I have done a lot of research on this topic and spoke with a lot of very experienced people about it. There are several keys to doing it properly, with space being the number one thing that most people bring up. But I have seen small 29g multi species enclosures that were successful. I have also seen large enclosures that were not. A lot of it goes towards species selection and research. But much more important than anything else, and very few people talk about this, is experience. I will give an example:

About a year ago, I had planned on building an enclosure for mantellas and a small uroplatus gecko species. I had no doubt in my mind that I could build a very dynamic enclosure since I was working with a 125 gallon tank. I had broken sight lines designed in, water supply, and even a basking spot for the gecko. This was all fine and dandy, and then I realized, while talking with my friend who breeds uroplatus, that I had zero experience with this species. In fact, I had limited experience with the mantellas. How was I going to know something was wrong in the tank, if there was? I wouldn't. But a very experienced keeper would, and that was not me. So the plan got scrapped. I may build it a decade down the road, but lost likely, not.

My point being that only the most experienced in whatever animals are chosen to go into a multi species tank should even attempt it.

You asked about shrimp and minnows in a water feature, they should not be an issue. I have kept shrimp and fish in water feature with my frogs with no problems whatsoever. Just remember to take I to account the size of the fully grown fish and the amount of USABLE aquatic area. Just because you pour 8 gallons of water into a tank with a water feature does not mean you are working with that much usable area for the aquatic critters.

Just my $.02. Hope it helps.

Hey Bill, what kind of Uroplatus did you wanted to keep?
If there is something most Uroplatus don't need it's extra heating, so a basking spot might do more bad than good with these guy's.
Also, keeping in mind their verocious nature, we think mixing Mantella with Uroplatus will only work with animals of the ebenaui group.

We agree with you that most species should not be attemted to be housed together, however in some occasions it might yust work though.

we have kept our Epipedobates tricolor with Lygodactylus williamsi and Lepidodactylus lugubris for a year or twoo, without having any problems. All breeding and doing great.
We only seperated them because we like biotope tanks, with plant's and animals all comming from the same area, and they don't fit in their, maybe we will try some Gonatodes species with them in the future.

After studying the behavior of our Boophis rappiodes for some time now, we recentley decided to put them in a mixed enclosure with our Ebenavia inunguis group, it's been working great so far, but not neirly lang enough to give any important info abouth it. We will keep you posted abouth this co-habitation and how it works out for us.
Ofcourse, we camp in front of the enclosure now to watch their behavior and emergency enclosures are up and running in case something should go wrong.
Plan is to build them a 60w-32d-40h in the future and maybe even try mixing in some sort of Mantella species and even some Phelsuma klemmeri, but first let's see how this works out.

At this time we are also working on a 32w-32d-71h that will house one of our pairs of Phelsuma grandis, and will also be housing some Dyscophus guinetti at the bottom.

We also keep a mixed enclosure with Ptychozoon kuhli and Cyrtodactylus fumosus, works great since they both inhabit different niches of their tank, but no frogs in that one, the gecko's might become to agressive for that.

We strongly agree with you do that mixing species should not be tried without any type of experience and knowledge abouth every animals individual needs and their husbandry in captivity though!!!

We don't have ton's of experience with frogs yet, but before we attempt mixing them we try to learn as much as we can abouth them.
Our animals always go trough a quarantaine period of at least 3 month's where they are kept individual.., after that they are kept for at least a few month's in a single species enclosure so we can study their behaviour and their needs.
Also, we do know our gecko's and their behavior so according to that , together with the part of them co-existing in the wild we decide if we want to try and keep a multiple species enclosure or not.

However, if there is anything that makes us think even the slitest problem could happen , we will not try it!

For example, Gekko gecko (Tokay) that has a very wide range in South-east Asia, and Gekko vittatus are both found in the same biotope in New-Guinea as some Litoria species, so in a large enclosure one could try and house these species together, in fact, we have seen people try it...
However, the gecko's of the Gekko genus are known to be pretty intolerate towards anything that's trying to invade their territory/nesting sites.., and they take down very large prey!
They also inhabit the higher ground, as the Litorea does.., and we have seen them take very large prey too.
Not in our wildest dreams would we ever try a mix like that!

We also agree with you abouth the fish part, it's not yust abouth throwing some fish and shrimp into the water feature, the water quality has to be yust right, and the needs of the aquatiq animals also have to be met, the same as for the other animals in the enclosure.

Greetings, Tamara & Kevin.

(Note to myself, get some English lessons!!!)

[deranged chipmunk]

Hey Tamara and Kevin! I was going to keep U. Phantasticus, which I found out, after doing more research, has pretty much the same requirements as the mantellas I was going to keep, but I still backed off because I had no experience with geckos.

You guys also bring up an excellent point as far as matching species goes. Matching a terrestrial frog, for example with and arboreal gecko can work since you can break sight lines so that they will rarely see each other. Also, mixing diurnal and nocturnal species, so that they are active at different times, like they would be in the wild.

I have seen many multi dart species enclosures that have been very successful because the species were chosen with extreme care.

I too, prefer a good biotope tank, but unfortunately for me, finding many plants from Madagascar in the states is near impossible. But I have done several amazon biotope aquatic tanks, and i really enjoyed them.

For what it's worth, your English is not so bad

[TKexotics]

Thanks.

Finding plants from Madagascar overhere can be a real pain too...
We would send you some cuttings if that was possible but i don't think they will make it there alive.

Greetings.

[deranged chipmunk]

I would be more worried about our customs service confiscating any plant materials. They do it all the time. But I appreciate the thought

I must say, it has been very pleasant to have an open discussion about this topic, instead of a flame war, like happens so often when this subject comes up. Thanks everybody for that!!

[TKexotics]

Haha okay, we didn't knew that.
Occasionaly we send some of our (non Cites) offspring gecko's to the US and so we tought it might work the same way for plants. Guess not.

And we agree, most of the times discussions abouth mixed enclosures turn hostile pretty fast.
This one is nice.

[deranged chipmunk]

Well then, that settles it. I guess I'll just have to order some geckos and they can ride over on the plants!! Lol

[TKexotics]

Haha, we where thinking the same thing...

[MantellaGuy]

I wrote this some time ago as pointers for people to consider when considering mixing species! I posted the lot instead of the link though!

Hope it helps

Introduction

This is something I have seen asked by New Keepers quite a lot of in the past and its something that's constantly increasing, which is Species Mixing. It’s something that gets asked more than most care requirements, which is quite worrying to say the least, in my opinion.*In past experiences I have seen many strange and quite frankly silly cases of lack of research performed prior to buying either one species or two, I have even seen someone who has bought a incredibly rare and endangered species (not in fantastic health either) and only ask about how to breed them simply for the money aspect it could fetch then keep them with species from the wrong climate.

I have also seen an increase in people mixing species without even knowing the dangers or checking important husbandry factors such as Temperatures/Habitat requirements etc that maybe very different between species.

Mixing Species

Firstly, for those of you just starting out in the hobby/profession, the practicing of Mixing Species should be done at your own risk with only you to be account for the situations that arise from it. The practice is highly frowned upon in the Hobby, this is even more so when you don’t have enough, if any experience with keeping species with their own kind.

Here are some of the excuses that get used by new keepers when they ask about mixing:

■ Zoo Exhibit.
■Shop does it.
■Both species are similar (example: Both are frogs/snakes etc).
■Both have a similar name (example: Bearded Dragon & Water Dragon).
■Seen a lot of keepers do it.

There are many more, I have even had someone say to me “Surely it’s more natural though?” It’s far from natural, for starters the wild doesn’t have Glass/Wooden Walls which prevent Flight behaviours.You may see the practice of mixing species being performed either by other keepers or in Zoo displays, which don’t very often work out or end in disaster. It's something, especially in a zoo environment, which is just used for looks and appearances in exhibits and also for lack of space; I have heard the “I saw it in a Zoo though” excuse being used numerous times by people.There are so many reasons for not doing this and there is a lot you have to think about before even considering trying it out.

Here are a few reasons why you shouldn’t and what you should think about (everyone feel free to add to list):

■Cross Contamination: This is a huge risk due to many Zoonotic Diseases that other species may contract through unnatural contact with an unfamiliar species. This can be avoided by Quarantining (QT) or Isolation (ISO) however this can only be the case with same species mixing.
■Natural Species Occurrence/Origin Range: Do the animals actually come across each other naturally in the wild? Believe it or not, this happens quite a lot where species that wouldn’t even come from the same Continent get mixed together. I have come across new keepers that have had species suggested to them immediately ask “Can species A go with species B?” Take a moment and quickly research the basic question “What’s there country of origin?” I have also seen people completely unaware of the fact two animals they keep together require different habitats, which is down to not being bothered to do research.
■Habitat Requirements: Do they require the same Habitat, Set-up and Habitat Requirements? This does tie in with the above bullet point about Natural Species Occurrence but factors such as Temperature, Humidity or Habitat behaviour such as being Arboreal, Terrestrial, Aquatic, Fossorial etc vary from species to species.
■Possible Spread of Disease: If they are Wild Caught (WC) specimens, certain diseases may lie dormant for long periods of time or they could be carriers (sort of cross contamination but I thought it was too important not to write), species such as African Clawed Frogs are carriers of certain strains of Chytrid Fungus.
■Possibility of Toxin Secretion: Amphibians all have natural toxins, these are all species specific but they could easily poison each other if either species is stressed enough to secrete them.
■Stress Related Reasons: Causing the animal(s) stress from being with a species they may not naturally come across. Stress can easily lower the immune system and cause illnesses which can lead to Death or future health problems that can reoccur or permanently stay. Chameleons are a good example of this, Chameleons are very sensitive to their surroundings and being in with another species would cause much unneeded stress.
■Size of the Individuals (Same species applies): Caudata can be cannibalistic if they ever get the chance, especially when in larval form. However mixing young specimens which are considerably smaller than full grown Adults is a bad idea also, for obvious reasons. Most species, even with its own kind, have the risk of eating each other due to size which can be a Sexually Dimorphic trait (Differences between sexes with Size, Ornamentation or Behaviour), however in however it can be simply plain greed which is the case with White’s Tree Frogs which are notorious for doing so.
■Risk of Attacking/Eating each other: Like I have said above some may attack either in defence or because they view the other species as a possible food source. This can even occur with Fish species being kept with a Caudata species such as Axolotls.
■Unnatural Breeding/Hybrid Specimens: It is possible for this to happen depending on the animals such as Poison Dart Frogs, Mantella and Tylototriton. It isn’t something that can be easily achieved however it is a reason worth bringing up; hybridisation is highly frowned upon especially with endangered or threatened species. In the wild, this has become a factor behind the decline of certain species, one being the Japanese Giant Salamander (Andrias japonicus) which is threatened by the introduction of the Chinese Giant Salamander (Andrias davidianus) that isn’t just a competitor, but also capable of breeding with them.
■Space Requirements: Is the enclosure is big enough to allow each individual animal to pick a retreat and live it's lifestyle without interference from others? Allowing enough Hides is vital. Even a big enclosure wouldn't be natural for two species to coexist together, don't forget the wild doesn’t have glass walls to boxes in animals.

(If you know of anymore reasons then feel free to comment with what reasons you think are worth mentioning.)

Either way, mixing species does contradict some of the Five Animal Needs that are used for a basis of Livestock Husbandry, those being:

■Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour*- by providing sufficient enclosure conditions and company of the animal's own species or avoiding company of unfamiliar species.
■Freedom from Fear and Distress*- by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering and anguish.

As I said before, experienced keepers who have either have experience with mixing species or even just keeping amphibians in general, should be the only people mixing if it must be practiced.

Don’t use Mixing Species as an excuse or a solution to a problem such as not having enough space for another Tank, can’t afford to buy other equipment or because you can’t decide between the two or more species, mixing can really cause more problems than it is actually worth in the long run. If you can’t afford to buy another Tank with Set-up then wait, be patient while you save up for what you need, which will also give you time to do more research into husbandry of the species.The subject of mixing is one that’s constantly under debate as some keepers have never had problems with the practice, but there are numerous incidents where mixing has had a bad outcome.

Either way, people all have their own personal opinion on the subject, they may agree, disagree or even delve deeper into the subject but most aspects are agreed upon.Just do plenty of research prior to either buying a individual species, as there is a lot of people purchasing animals without bothering to do the tiniest amount of research before hand. If a pet shop tells you its ok, just double check to make sure as at the end of the day they are out to make money and not all of them care (Some shops are simply amazing and have a lot of good knowledge, these will also not advise mixing unless you are experienced). However, at the end of the day it is up to you if you want to try doing this and no one can stop you from doing it.Thank you for reading and hope this helps those of you new to the hobby or if you’re trying to specialise in a certain area.*

MantellaGuy

This is a huge topic which nearly always ends up in arguments, I will have none of that here please. So think, before you type with your own opinions.

[deranged chipmunk]

I was hoping you would chime in josh. I remember reading this post a while back. Excellent write up!! Thanks for adding it!!