pacman not eating

[DVirginiana]

That's... Just a really bad idea. If your frog isn't even dropping weight or looking sick, you should never resort to dangerous feeders like that. These animals can go months without food in the wild.
Hopefully the toxins from the toad won't kill your frog. When two animals are so far apart geographically, the predator often has no defense against the toxic prey item. That's the reason Cane toads are such a problem in Australia. The only herps I know of that can eat Bufo americanus safely are garter, water, and hognose snakes that share range with the toads. Probably American bullfrogs too, but I've never seen any concrete data on those...

Even if you get lucky and the frog isn't harmed by the poison, frogs and toads are a bad idea since they carry parasites and other diseases that can easily pass to your frog.

[limnologist]

Once again, Im just saying, Ive been keeping Pacmans for years and have a lot of experience with herps and aquatics, Bufo Americanus DOES NOT harm Pacman frogs.

[Hypnotic]

Well, your right and your wrong limnologist. Theres nothing wrong with feeding a pacman frog frogs, however, isn't it an unnesecary risk your taking? Even if the poison is harmless as you say it is, what about the parasites?
I preffer to feed my frogs things that are more nutricious and aren't healthrisks. I really hope nothing happends to your frog, and your free to feed whatever you want to him, but personally, I don't take any risks when it comes to my animals.

[limnologist]

Well, your right and your wrong limnologist. Theres nothing wrong with feeding a pacman frog frogs, however, isn't it an unnesecary risk your taking? Even if the poison is harmless as you say it is, what about the parasites?
I preffer to feed my frogs things that are more nutricious and aren't healthrisks. I really hope nothing happends to your frog, and your free to feed whatever you want to him, but personally, I don't take any risks when it comes to my animals.

I see what your saying, but I only have easy access to Toads (I breed them for selling to gardeners). And after years of keeping many animals, all were capable of eating the toads, I found it did no harm. However, I have nothing to say about other species of toads as I have never fed any other species to my pets. The best way to learn is to read and experiment, and that's what I did when I first thought of feeding toads to my pets.

[DVirginiana]

I'm glad the toad didn't harm your pac, but you're looking at potential harm from toxicity the wrong way. All the animals you mentioned that eat Bufo americanus evolved alongside them, and have systems that we KNOW can handle that type of toxin.

The toxicity of Bufo marinus isn't what leads to it being such a problem in Australia. There are dozens of snakes, lizards, and fish in its native habitat that can eat it an suffer no negative effects because they evolved ALONGSIDE it. Saying that it is a problem there because it is so much more toxic than Bufo americanus is to ignore the fact that it isn't potency, but evolutionary relationships that determine danger to predators.

Another example that I have seen personally involves garter snakes (which I raise). These are known to eat many amphibians, and are the only known animal that can safely consume fire newts. However, they cannot eat anything that has touched my pacman frog (I would occasionally offer them a pinkie she had refused). It will result in a regurge within the hour. This is a snake that can safely consume one of the most toxic amphibians on the planet, and they have adverse reactions to the toxins a pac produces, which are so mild humans don't even consider them an irritant (and why I didn't think anything about offering them something that had touched her).

Also, once again, I'm really glad for you and your frogs that this seems to work but promoting this strategy as a safe and effective way to 'experiment' with new food sources is just... incorrect. Unless you've done a detailed comparison between the proteins Bufo americaus produces and the proteins produced by ranids in the pacman's natural diet and found them to be highly similar, deciding to feed the toads to something outside their natural range is no more well-researched than tossing any random animal into the pac's tank and hoping it doesn't have adverse effects, since (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing in the actual literature regarding Bufo americanus as a feeder for horned frogs.
I respect your experience in husbandry (seriously, I do), but unless you have information you haven't shared with us, you just got lucky, because the 'methods' you described for determining this would be a safe feeder just don't add up.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... I totally understand that sometimes unsafe/unknown feeders are a necessary last resort. It's just that a blind stab at safe feeders shouldn't be touted as a safe and well-thought-out way to determine if something is a good feeder or not for hobbyists.

[limnologist]

I'm glad the toad didn't harm your pac, but you're looking at potential harm from toxicity the wrong way. All the animals you mentioned that eat Bufo americanus evolved alongside them, and have systems that we KNOW can handle that type of toxin.

The toxicity of Bufo marinus isn't what leads to it being such a problem in Australia. There are dozens of snakes, lizards, and fish in its native habitat that can eat it an suffer no negative effects because they evolved ALONGSIDE it. Saying that it is a problem there because it is so much more toxic than Bufo americanus is to ignore the fact that it isn't potency, but evolutionary relationships that determine danger to predators.

Another example that I have seen personally involves garter snakes (which I raise). These are known to eat many amphibians, and are the only known animal that can safely consume fire newts. However, they cannot eat anything that has touched my pacman frog (I would occasionally offer them a pinkie she had refused). It will result in a regurge within the hour. This is a snake that can safely consume one of the most toxic amphibians on the planet, and they have adverse reactions to the toxins a pac produces, which are so mild humans don't even consider them an irritant (and why I didn't think anything about offering them something that had touched her).

Also, once again, I'm really glad for you and your frogs that this seems to work but promoting this strategy as a safe and effective way to 'experiment' with new food sources is just... incorrect. Unless you've done a detailed comparison between the proteins Bufo americaus produces and the proteins produced by ranids in the pacman's natural diet and found them to be highly similar, deciding to feed the toads to something outside their natural range is no more well-researched than tossing any random animal into the pac's tank and hoping it doesn't have adverse effects, since (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing in the actual literature regarding Bufo americanus as a feeder for horned frogs.
I respect your experience in husbandry (seriously, I do), but unless you have information you haven't shared with us, you just got lucky, because the 'methods' you described for determining this would be a safe feeder just don't add up.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... I totally understand that sometimes unsafe/unknown feeders are a necessary last resort. It's just that a blind stab at safe feeders shouldn't be touted as a safe and well-thought-out way to determine if something is a good feeder or not for hobbyists.

Respect! lol.
I get what your thinking, Ive found out that bufo americanus toxins aren't deadly to pacmans and do not have adverse effects on them. It happened accidentally too! I was cleaning my toad cage and my pacman cage at the same time (my pacman doesnt try to get out) and one of the toads jumped and landed in front of the frog. The frog had him down in two bites! after that I monitered him for 4 months and nothing happened, he went dormant and then came into his breeding season. I was curious and fed it more toads ( mainly because I was so used to feeding toads to my pets) and it never was affected by the toxins. And trust me, after the toad was eaten, I did my research and found that both amphibians contain the same bufotoxin with very minute differences chemically, and of course the pacman doesnt have as potent of load of toxins as the toad. It might be this minute difference that bothers your snakes. However, because it had already eaten the toad, I figured I would document the effects, whether it was going to die or not. And that is what I did. Now, I know that my pacmans are perfectly fine eating the toads. In fact, the first one to eat a toad now prefers it over all other foods (except mice).

[DVirginiana]

Wish you had said that beforehand! Those are methods I actually can be on board with

I've just had a lot of conversations with people who will feed their reptiles really questionable things for no real reason other than curiosity. (That and I literally just took a break from tearing some new orifices in a research paper to check the frog forum... Guess I didn't switch modes!)

[limnologist]

That's... Just a really bad idea. If your frog isn't even dropping weight or looking sick, you should never resort to dangerous feeders like that. These animals can go months without food in the wild.
Hopefully the toxins from the toad won't kill your frog. When two animals are so far apart geographically, the predator often has no defense against the toxic prey item. That's the reason Cane toads are such a problem in Australia. The only herps I know of that can eat Bufo americanus safely are garter, water, and hognose snakes that share range with the toads. Probably American bullfrogs too, but I've never seen any concrete data on those...

Even if you get lucky and the frog isn't harmed by the poison, frogs and toads are a bad idea since they carry parasites and other diseases that can easily pass to your frog.

Not only is the poison that Bufo Americanus posseses not dangerous to Pacmans, other amphibians are part of the pacman's diet. Even though the american toad is never naturally eaten by the pacman, the pacman is still built to eat other amphibians.