Whites Tree Frog Substrate?

[laurag99]

Hi. I recently bought frog moss for my whites tree frog tank and it got moldy. I had a layer of hydroballs, then coco fiber, then the moss. The problem is that my frogs hate the coco fiber because it clings to their skin. I can't find any live mosses and can't seem to get an dried mosses to grow and not get moldy. I saw a product in the store the other day called T-red Crab Island Climbing Background (at Petco). It claims to be made completely out of coco fibers that are compressed. It looks like a mat and is supposed to be for hermit crabs. So my question is, can I use this for my two whites tree frogs? Also, is it okay to have a layer of hydroballs underneath it for drainage?

[flybyferns]

Hello Laura,
Welcome to Frog Forum
I'm happy to share some information with you

Have you considered using paper towel ? Plain paper towel damped with the same water as used in the water dish ( de-chlorinated ---ONLY) This can be used indefinitely or while you are collecting supplies for the substrate build.

Any carpet or liner type material should only be considered if it can be completely disinfected between uses otherwise it will become completely contaminated. This type contamination ( same of which occurs in soiled cricket bowls and water dishes) will eventually lead to illnesses

One layer of thin "coco fiber mat" should not be used in place of the soil layer of a traditional layer bottom.

There is NOT ONE product at Petco that is suitable for this purpose---despite it's 'claimed' purposes.

When you 'build ' a transitional layered bottom....it should never smell moldy. ( maybe you started with something that already had mold )

When new supplies are ready- don't use anything that smells moldy...it will just get worse.

The soil layer should not be just 'eco earth'. ABG is typically used. ( information below)
When completed it should be 'seeded' with sprigtails and isopods- these little insects will help keep the soil clean of rotting plant matter and missed frog feces.

Here is some information:

Naturalistic Vivarium Substrates | Reptile and Amphibian Substrates | Josh's Frogs

Springtails - Feeder Insects and Supplies | Josh's Frogs

Isopods at Josh's Frogs

You don't want the frog to ever eat near any kind of moss or coco chunks as this can increase the risk of impaction.
A common method of feeding is to use a bowl to contain the feeder insects... this is important if housed with anything that could be accidentally swallowed.

We all have little favorites and some minor difference in the layered bottom.
My layers bottoms is made with the following materials:
Botton up
gravel ( pea size) it's heavy but I like it minimum 3" Make sure you have your tank where you want it
1" poly quilting batting ( found in rolls at a fabric shop)
fiberglass screen ( home depot ) I don't like the fabric.
The soil > AGB information above Josh's has a great mix! ( however, I break the sphagnum somewhat up before I use it )
-my PDF tanks are drilled > drainage ( at the top of the gravel layer) as it would drive my nuts if I ever had to siphon ;(

I don't use any soil substrate in my tree frog tanks.
My dart enclosures/substrate are all built as described above.

There is also the option of a false bottom.
You will find tons of information here on FF as there are many very experienced members.
Read the build treads - especially in the tree frog and viv threads:

Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion
Tree Frogs

care sheet:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...caresheet.html
Don't forget his calcium and vit supplements !

You can mist the enclosure ( not the frog) with distilled water all other water should be de-chlorinated.
I use Aquatize 'conditioner' ... a product made by exo-terra

Keep us posted and please feel free to continue to chime it.
Have fun

[kueluck]

I use the core mats but have layered it. Hydroton, core mat, sphagnum moss, core mat. The moss holds moisture for the spring tail to live in & helps with humidity in the tank. Now if a feeder bugs gets out of the bowl I don't worry about impaction because of substrate & Meshack LOVES to stalk the occasional free runner. They really don't spend much time on the floor, but then they are tree frogs and seem to love all the other optional hang out places provided for them. Also the tank has a nice clean smell to it now.

[laurag99]

Thanks! I forgot to mention that I do already feed my frogs in a little glass bowl in their tank so the risk of impaction hasn't really worried me. This was all very helpful. I have them with moist paper towels as a substrate for now. Are the springtails hard to manage? Are they useful in a setup like Gail has described?

[laurag99]

Oh and what is core mat?

[kueluck]

Core mat is compressed cocofiber, also called CocoTek & it's 100% organic. Most hydroponic stores carry this, and yes the springtails are very helpful in this. If there's poo on the floor they clean up what I don't get.

[Mentat]

I use the core mats but have layered it. Hydroton, core mat, sphagnum moss, core mat. The moss holds moisture for the spring tail to live in & helps with humidity in the tank. Now if a feeder bugs gets out of the bowl I don't worry about impaction because of substrate & Meshack LOVES to stalk the occasional free runner. They really don't spend much time on the floor, but then they are tree frogs and seem to love all the other optional hang out places provided for them. Also the tank has a nice clean smell to it now.

Hi Gail! That is an interesting substrate method. What maintenance do you give it and how often do you need to replace the top or other layers? Thank you !

[kueluck]

I went with this method back in Dec 2013. I was checking out WTF vivs and came across this method from a guy in Europe who's been doing this for years. I love the idea that if there's a free runner bug I don't have to worry about the frogs ingesting any substrate. I really haven't done anything with it except spot clean the poo that the springtails don't get to before I find it. And I check every morning for poo when I clean the water & feeder bowls. I'm going to rinse out the mat & moss the end of this month just for GP & will replace it when it appears to show wear, like loose fiber. I also love the smell.....................so clean!!

[deranged chipmunk]

I love Gail's setup, but I couldn't not have real plants. Personal preference, obviously. I use dirt, essentially, covered in leaf litter. And half the floor space is 4 inches of water.

[kueluck]

I didn't think I would like it either since the others are all planted, but I really like this one, plus having the real driftwood helps. I just worry to much about them eating something they shouldn't since they are such aggresive eaters. Oh, and the "real tree" fabric helps also, that's the redneck in me I guess.

[Mentat]

I love Gail's setup, but I couldn't not have real plants. Personal preference, obviously. I use dirt, essentially, covered in leaf litter. And half the floor space is 4 inches of water.

Hi Bill! For Darts and Mantellas myself would go with a traditional vivarium set-up. However; for the larger tree frogs; think this is a good idea. And who says you can't add a nice central potted plant plant or couple epiphytes attached to a similar coco mat on the back or sides ?

[deranged chipmunk]

Oh, I think it's brilliant. I like it. And you know me, if there's space and opportunity, there's gonna be a plant in there! Lol

[laurag99]

I think I'm going to go with Gail's idea because it seems like it would be the best for my frogs. Are the springtails really necessary? If so, can I just put them in the tank? Do they need food? Lastly, do whites tree frogs eat the springtails or are the springtails too small?

[Mentat]

I think I'm going to go with Gail's idea because it seems like it would be the best for my frogs. Are the springtails really necessary? If so, can I just put them in the tank? Do they need food? Lastly, do whites tree frogs eat the springtails or are the springtails too small?

Unless new borne froglets; springtails are too small for White's. They live off the organics including frog poop. I would add a colony once frogs are in. If not available locally; can order online from Josh Frogs or others .

[kueluck]

I tuck a little bug burger under the top mat for the spring tails since the three WTFs don't produce enough fecal to sustain the colony.

[laurag99]

Thanks for all the great answers everybody! What would happen if I didn't use spring tails though but still used the traditional layer setup with coco mat instead of coco fiber? Would it get moldy?

[Mentat]

Don't think will get moldy unless you let humidity get high; keep it between 50-65% and it should be OK. Think using the spring tails is a matter of clean up help for keeper .