Toad keepers-how deep is your substrate?

[kueluck]

As some of you know my Fowlers toad Rufus passed away this week of unknown causes. For the past 3 years I've always kept up to 5 inch of substrate for them to burrow in. Last year I had 2 females burrow for 7 months with no ill effects but I'm wondering if I really need to have it this deep, if maybe I had kept the levels lower so they couldn't burrow that deep Rufus may still be around. Just looking to see what others are doing. I was going to dig up the other 4 but I'm concerned this would put to much stress on them.

[Xubby]

Not sure I have enough experience yet with their husbandry for this to matter, but I keep my tank around four inches deep, and try to keep it moist enough it can't collapse. I've always wondered how deep she'd go if left to her own devices, because she always ends up touching the bottom of the tank. Any more shallow than that and I'm not really sure how feasible burrowing is.

[Tongue Flicker]

I used to keep my cane toad in a 5 inch substrate. Usually a substrate that is 3-4 times their sitting height (top of head to the ground) is efficient for a home setting. Of course, deeper is always better

[kueluck]

I've read on one of the "expert" sites that toads do not necessarily need to burrow, but if you supply hides that's fine also. I've been using hides & 5 inch of eco earth since I've started keeping toads 3 years ago and was wondering if maybe, just maybe I don't need that much substrate so they wouldn't go into hibernation and stay active like the WTFs & AGTF do. So I was looking to see if maybe other toad keepers used this method of housing. It's very sad to look at an "empty" tank. I know in a few weeks they will be active again, it's just the long wait that sucks.

[Mentat]

I've read on one of the "expert" sites that toads do not necessarily need to burrow, but if you supply hides that's fine also...

Hi Gail! I've read the same information at Frank's site and he's kept toads in public zoos and has long lived specimens. Don't think any of the American ground toads are obligate borrowers. So, would keep any of them in an enclosure with a couple hide spots like tunneled or slanted cork bark and clay flower pots on a shallow substrate layer.

There is a risk involved when any of our frogs or toads follows it's instinct and tries to hibernate or aestivate in captivity. My advice is that unless it's part of pre-breeding conditioning; that activity should be discouraged. Think you are in the right track and should try a shallower substrate method and see how that goes. Good luck !

[kueluck]

That's the "expert" site I was talking about. So I just might dig up everyone this weekend and revamp the toad hotel. Thanks Carlos.

[Psychotic]

I use anywhere from 3-5 inches. I currently have 5 inches of eco earth. My toads are burrowed for the winter. Have been since November.

As to giving them less substrate. I have only given them a inch or 2 before and they still tried to burrow it in. They would hunker down and close their eyes tight, as if they were completely burrowed. They have never been really fond of the hides I've given them. The only one they seem to actually ever use is a plastic basket that I cut a hole into and placed upside down.
I have also given them just paper towel. They shredded it trying to burrow and ended up all hunkered down in a corner. I feel too sorry for them and always give them deep substrate again.

Last winter my toad Jabba died. Sometimes animals die in brumation. There is risk, even when conditions seem perfect.
This winter has been pretty cold. But every time it warms up a little after a cold spell the toads come up and shed. I feed them and then they burrow again. They have done this twice so far. I have dug them up a couple of times to check on them. Probably not the best thing to do. But so far everyone seems to be doing well.
Last year I didn't dig anyone up or any time before that. But after Jabba died; like you, I was worried.

I'd only give them a couple of inches of substrate. Then they can somewhat burrow and you will still be able to find them easily. Also your toads might actually use their hides, unlike mine. The only reason that I give mine so much to burrow in, is because I am actually cooling them. I want them to have a little protection against the cold.

[kueluck]

Yes mine do use the hides when they are up, and the temps don't vary that much for me during the winter since I keep a heat lamp on, so not sure why they want to hibernate. Crazy toads.

Thanks guys for the input, keep it coming.

[nicodimus22]

I give my American toad about 3 inches of Eco Earth, but she never burrows, even for the winter. I have a big hide and lots of ground cover, and she seems content with that. If I noticed her burrowing, I would give her deeper substrate, but it's always in the 70s in that room so I suspect she just doesn't feel the urge.

[victorsgrace]

Condolences on Rufus, Gail.

My two guys are wildcaught and when they first came inside, Louis went completely underground for to-three days, all the way to the bottom, until I took him up and fed him (they were both undernourished when found, so I needed to get something in him). At that time I was keeping them in a Fauna box and their substrate was around 4 inches. Birger just made a preferred hole for himself, which was about 2 inches deep and never burrowed any further.

Today I keep the guys in an avarage of 2 inch deep substrate. What I do to conpensate for possible lack of depth is to variate the depth of the substrate. I gave them each a small pot, that I dug down halfway in tipped angle, filled the "ground" in the pot with substrate and covered the back and body of the pot with substrate. Otherwise I have supplied them with artificial shrubbery, live moss-pads and two branches, one that's placed over the corner of their watertank.

Every evening or second evening their mosspads, plants and branches are sprayed with water to mimic nightfalls natural himidity in DK, besides a change of the waterdish.

They seem very pleased : They have their preferred spots. Birger prefers to hide under the plank in his waterdish and Louis prefers to burrow 1½ inch between the two pots or find a hidden place, under one of the mosspads. As for hibernation goes, they first went lazy and both dissappeared under mosspads or a 2 inch dug hole, on their way to hibernation (because the light was fading, even tough the temp was stable). This went on for two-three weeks, but as the temp remained stable, they snapped out of it.

They are also very active, trotting around their enclosure alot during the early morning hours, dusk- and nighttime. <3

[bluesclues]

I'veimportant thing is they dont need or want a he as t lamp... for t he same reason - they would normally have cooler we eather, overcast skies and rsin + snow to keep yhem moist. - not condtantly, but occasionally, like they're drinking water to not dry out.

had a toas t, then squeeze it out, so its damp (moi as t, not its like replicating the natural snow-melt and rain that she would be experiencing if she were outside hibernating.

One Ithe hink she is sleeping, enough to get down to her and actually wet hrr down, so she can soak the wster into her skin ( since thats how th err y "drink" water, is through their skin...

I dont want her to dry out and die from dessication - and I figure Iet)

Thsts how I keep her, and she does grest.

But I always pour dechlorinated water on top of a few spots where I ad with meinches deep of peat moss to burrow in.

I eet the pe for 4- years and she hibernates every winter... I added another toad to her tank last yesris because we had a wild toad in our ysrd for yesrs ( we fed her trests in a bowl by the big tree) ... but then one year I found her near a different tree, all hacked up from a weedwacker - it was gross and sad....

So these I rescued to keep them safe,.

One toad always hibernates for real, for several monyhs...

I give her about 6 - 7 Ishes younger -

Both wild caught american toads... the only reason I kept them ( besides that I think they're sweet and cute : ) IGail, sorry to hear about your tosd -
I just posted to you in another thread, where your toad tank photo was, before i saw this topic...

Iv

[bluesclues]

What is wrong with my tablet ??!?? : (
.

[bluesclues]

Not sure why its so hsrd to post in here, its so frustrating, takes gorever, then the message is all jumbled up... substrate 6 -7 inches. Pe as t moss wet the peat moss, then squeeze it out, so its damp, not wet...NO heat lamp. Dries them out. Kills them.
During hibernation, drizzle enough water on a few spots where you think the toad might be, occasionally, so they dont dras ting container, place tosds in water dish fpor a manditory sosk, thrn let the hem re - bury themselves in the slightly damp pe as t moss, hope that helps,..4 ye as rs of hibernation still dojng grest, knock wood.y out...place cute holiday house and candy canes in dirt prior to hibernation, so yheres something cute to look st while they hibernste...if the pest moss seems too dry, i dig up the tosds and rewet - squeeze out the peat again, offer food in a seperste e

[bluesclues]

Tablet for sale...cheap. lol arghhhh

[kueluck]

With all the toads I've had this is the first problem coming our of hibernation. I'm going to leave the levels low to avoid it next year. I've had two females go down for 7 months straight will no problem. I'm just looking to see if using several inches of eco earth is really necessary. Looks like it's not.

Not sure why its so hsrd to post in here, its so frustrating, takes gorever, then the message is all jumbled up... substrate 6 -7 inches. Pe as t moss wet the peat moss, then squeeze it out, so its damp, not wet...NO heat lamp. Dries them out. Kills them.
During hibernation, drizzle enough water on a few spots where you think the toad might be, occasionally, so they dont dras ting container, place tosds in water dish fpor a manditory sosk, thrn let the hem re - bury themselves in the slightly damp pe as t moss, hope that helps,..4 ye as rs of hibernation still dojng grest, knock wood.y out...place cute holiday house and candy canes in dirt prior to hibernation, so yheres something cute to look st while they hibernste...if the pest moss seems too dry, i dig up the tosds and rewet - squeeze out the peat again, offer food in a seperste e

[bluesclues]

They might have dried out or had pathogens in the tank ( Frank said that kills some during hibernation / brumation)..personally, I would dig them all up, place in a dechlorinated water dish, offer food in a seperate feeding tub, so theres no feeder insects rotting in the tank, also put a layer of damp (moist, not wet peat moss on top of what you have already in there - and after they have an hour or so to eat if desired, in a seperate feeding tub, and a manditory sit in water dish, then let them rebury themselves in slightly moist peet moss - its acid level cuts down on pathogens. Remove heat lamp and remove under tank heaters if you have one in there. Heat dries them out and can kill them...to eliminate the possibility of other toads drying out and dying from dessication, I would do this, just to be safe. Better safe than sorry. No heat soueces, and make sure they get a chance to soak, and add an inch or two of slightly moist peet moss, both for moisture and to e
Reduce pathogens.

[bluesclues]

When using peet moss, wet it thoroughly then squeeze it out, so its fluffy and slightly moist / damp, not wet.

[kueluck]

Rufus came up a month prior, soaked, ate, pooped then went back down, but when he came up the second time he just didn't seem to "wake" up. I don't use any source of heat w/toads and the only free runners in the viv are pill bugs and spring tails, all my frogs/toad feed from bowls. Their substrate is always slightly moist at all times so drying out isn't a concern for me. As for digging them up, that puts a lot of stress on them and that will weaken their immune system, just like humans.

They might have dried out or had pathogens in the tank ( Frank said that kills some during hibernation / brumation)..personally, I would dig them all up, place in a dechlorinated water dish, offer food in a seperate feeding tub, so theres no feeder insects rotting in the tank, also put a layer of damp (moist, not wet peat moss on top of what you have already in there - and after they have an hour or so to eat if desired, in a seperate feeding tub, and a manditory sit in water dish, then let them rebury themselves in slightly moist peet moss - its acid level cuts down on pathogens. Remove heat lamp and remove under tank heaters if you have one in there. Heat dries them out and can kill them...to eliminate the possibility of other toads drying out and dying from dessication, I would do this, just to be safe. Better safe than sorry. No heat soueces, and make sure they get a chance to soak, and add an inch or two of slightly moist peet moss, both for moisture and to e
Reduce pathogens.

[bluesclues]

Im sorry that happened...maybe ask Frank about it, at "that pet place"...He said even zoos have losses from hibernation... it sounds liktypes our loss. e uou did great with them. One thing he mentioned was ammonia build-up as a possible problem that leads to a lot of deaths. ?.He's very helpful and loves toads, and loves to hear about them, and t err ies to help out... it mig ht be worth ssking him about any possible causes and corrections that might help your remaining toads.

I thought you said you had a heat lamp ? He advises against those and says only low light 2.0 with lots of shade plants etc. Sorry for

[bluesclues]

Yes mine do use the hides when they are up, and the temps don't vary that much for me during the winter since I keep a heat lamp on, so not sure why they want to hibernate. Crazy toads.

Thanks guys for the input, keep it coming.

...
This is where you mentioned using a heat lamp... sometimes toads dry out, sometimes pathogens build up over time, and sometimes ammonia , which is odorless to us, can cause losses in captive pets. Again, Im sorry for your loss, and hwish you the best in figuring out any possible adjustments that might help the other toads... some things show up after tkme, from accumulation, etc... do you change the substrate or clean the tank, in case either of the above are increasing accidently ? (Pathogens or ammonia) - only trying to help with the mystery - hope its not taken the wrong way... good luck with them...its wonderful that youre helping little ones get released into the wild. : )