Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
Iratus, it's possible to discuss a topic, make a point, and even disagree without being offensive in the process. Somehow 99.9% of the people on the forum manage that. You too can accomplish this with little effort, and make your point. In fact, you will be more persuasive if you do.
I am naturally prone to sarcasm and contempt. Sometimes people are thin-skinned. I can tone it down, but not kill it (it just wouldn't be me if I did). If it will further discussion, I can remove some of it from the above, and repost. Particularly if that will get people to actually address the argument-and read the rules in question.

There is a question of post-deletion which I see has happened with some of those by one named Crotalus (my roommate for the summer, and collaborator). If the posts were deleted for TOS violations, accidentally or through computer glitch (board reverting to backups or something) then that is one thing. Deleting them for the purposes of censoring is another and even if legal and within one's rights as admin/staff/mod is not morally OK. It would be nice if that was clarified. He is standing over my shoulder wondering where his posts went.

As you request:

See this is another example of people over reacting and NOT thinking. The problem of Chytrid is not because of people raising and keeping amphibians. The fungus is present every world in the world and has been probably for centuries.

John if you would like I wrote scientific review article over Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis. It's long, but I assure you I did an excellent job on it and have a full page of around 15-20 references that I used. Let me know, because maybe it could be posted under a link or something.
If you wrote a scientific review, then you would not have made that mistake regarding the origin and time span of chytrid fungus infection. The earliest known museum specimens found to be infected were Xenopus originating in Africa.

Origin of the amphibian chytrid fungus. [Emerg Infect Dis. 2004] - PubMed result

If a ban goes into place will they be required to give up our names and have our animals destroyed while everyone else keeps theirs because they don't know about them? I am second guessing registering any more.
No one is coming after your frogs. There is no ban being proposed. Read the rule change proposed. It is a chytrid testing requirement for those that ship frogs across state lines and into the country. That is it. The test is cheap, and can be done by a third party lab.

I think the press release makes a good point - when have you known legislators to care enough to fairly regulate for a topic like this of marginal voting consequence? Easier to ban outright.
And a ban is not even remotely what is occurring

Add in the detrimental effect of a token few zealots with big funding backing them and things like the California Ambystomid Ban and the Washington State Invasive Aquatic Species Ban happen.
CA has major problems with invasive species. Banning species that if released (and several have) that can harm native populations is reasonable. Same with Washington State. Bullfrogs. All I need to say about the problems with that state.

I will need to check the CA laws, I know Axolotls are banned because if introduced you get a 14 inch long voracious salamander lava that can easily survive in the state and eat native amphibian populations out of existence.

Though other ambystomids as far as I know can still be used for Bait.

Seriously, the problem with groups like Defenders of Wildlife, they don't see the benefit of captive breeding programs. I would like to see zoos and other serious amphibian hobbyists get together and work on saving these animals.
These rules will actually economically encourage local captive breeding. No consumer wants a chance to have the animal they ship in infected with chytrid, and it is much easier to breed your stock and sell off the clean animals than have to continually test wild caught specimens.

Terry, i could not agree more. If I could figure out a way to convince the herpetologists and zoos once and for all that there are a good many "amatures" around doing real work with these animals that is just as valid as the work they are doing, I would. I feel this gap will ultimately doom the species the "big" budgets ignore.

The sheer pettiness of the scientific community and the zealots' lobby powers will ultimately be the downfall of us all.
This is personally offensive to me as well as ignorant, so I will keep the tone of the original.

What pettiness? The idea that we, the people who usually spend our entire lives as hobbyists and then go to school for 9-12 years (depending on program) and then study amphibians professionally might know what we are talking about a tad better than someone who keeps a few Pyxicephalus or Bombina?

That people do not even take the time to read the rules proposed by the FWS before spouting off is mind blowing. The rule being proposed is in principle the same thing done with food animals. You know that FDA inspection stamp on the packages of meat you buy? It is pretty much like that. I suppose the epidemiologists, vets, and agricultural scientists who contribute to this form of regulation are being petty, and think themselves more knowledgeable than those who raise cows as pets who may be hampered if old Betsy dies and they want to take the meat to market without it being inspected first.

Who on here has the resources required to breed say... Massive numbers of Rana muscosa? Do you have environmental growth chambers and other apparati used to induce reproduction? Do you know how to perform artificial fertilization with frogs?

Do you do research into the underlying causes of amphibian declines so that captive bred specimens can be re-released?

What percentage of animals bred by hobbyists would do anything but go to other hobbyists? Practically none. The only successful population reintroduction programs I have ever heard of have been done by professionals. Unless there is a group of hobbyists raising condors or whooping cranes I dont know of. As a matter of fact AZGF and the Phoenix Zoo (along with the Fort Worth Zoo) are doing a very good job breeding large numbers of Lithobates chiricahuensis. It is professionals keeping amphibian species such as the entire genus Atelopus from being eaten alive by Chytrid Fungus, not hobbyists.

Hobbyists do an excellent job developing ways to raise small numbers of amphibians in an inexpensive manner and getting finicky species to breed. They dont however have the facilities to properly do a captive breeding program. Those that do can properly be classified as professionals and typically have decades of experience and/or formal education and training. Just think about what doing vet treatment for all of those animals requires. If your colony comes down with red-leg you have to have baytril on hand which is script only. If not you have to resort to salt baths. You have to have quarantine space etc.

To set up breeding facilities for Booroolong Frogs took tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in initial investment.
Well this is the first time I read something like this and I see alot of good points but ima put it like this; as with anything else they ban or make illegal people are still going to find a way to do it no matter what only to get rid of it years later. For example marijuana is illegal yet in some state its becoming legal..why?Ive witnessed first hand what it could do to your brain an ima be honest I use to smoke it but not no more. Anyway to pass this (in my opinion) is a waste of time. Im upfor making the world better but some things are pointless unless they really tend to enforce this to the full extent.
Making something illegal cannot stop it completely, but it can stop large scale movements. Someone shipping a friend their ceratophrys tadpoles is a far cry from the mass shipment of bullfrogs done by Carolina Biological Supply, or commercial shipment of frog legs from Paraguay or domestic bullfrog farms.
As I am on my phone I cannot provide a link, but if you are ignoring this issue, have a go at the recent updates to New Mexico's amphibian pet laws. Yes, you can get permits for some species if you do not mind paying out a few grand. No, you can not yet permits as the bulk of species are blanket banned...
My sarcasm was perfectly appropriate dealing with this, because even a cursory reading of the NM statute shows it is not true.