Group lobbying for possible Amphibian pet trade ban in US

[Iratus ranunculus]

While I am at it, I have a general question.

Why is it that herp hobbyists in general seldom actually read the text of rule changes or legislation before getting into an uproar about them? People take organizations with explicit political agendas at their word that legislation or regulations amount to a ban but never actually read the text that is being objected to. It is really funny when someone puts their foot in their mouth in that respect.

[froghobbiest]

Well this is the first time I read something like this and I see alot of good points but ima put it like this; as with anything else they ban or make illegal people are still going to find a way to do it no matter what only to get rid of it years later. For example marijuana is illegal yet in some state its becoming legal..why?Ive witnessed first hand what it could do to your brain an ima be honest I use to smoke it but not no more. Anyway to pass this (in my opinion) is a waste of time. Im upfor making the world better but some things are pointless unless they really tend to enforce this to the full extent.

[Iratus ranunculus]

Well this is the first time I read something like this and I see alot of good points but ima put it like this; as with anything else they ban or make illegal people are still going to find a way to do it no matter what only to get rid of it years later. For example marijuana is illegal yet in some state its becoming legal..why?Ive witnessed first hand what it could do to your brain an ima be honest I use to smoke it but not no more. Anyway to pass this (in my opinion) is a waste of time. Im upfor making the world better but some things are pointless unless they really tend to enforce this to the full extent.

By that same logic, making a lot of things illegal is a waste of time. Afterall, no matter how hard we try some tinpot dictator out there will commit war crimes. No matter how illegal we make it, slavery will still happen! Then there is murder... afterall, that is what chytrid does to amphibian populations.

Chitrid is really nasty for frogs. Because of it, many of the frogs in Central America, as well as most of the ranids native to the pacific north west are extinct or on their way there. If we cannot tell ourselves that we need to curtail its spread, then we have no justification for having any environmental law whatsoever. Afterall, Chytrid was spread to the new world by hobbyists and biopharmaceutical companies.

These rules can be enforced the same way laws dealing with livestock are. The infrastructure is already in place it just needs to be expanded a bit. You will still have small scale illegal shipping by private individuals, but that is nothing like the commercial interstate transport that occurs right now. This will also encourage captive breeding, not curtail it. This is because it will become increasingly difficult and thus costly to collect amphibians commercially.

The whole reason dendrobatids are captive bred now is because they were being driven to extinction by commercial collection and habitat destruction and the cost to get them became so high people started breeding them.

[SludgeMunkey]

As I am on my phone I cannot provide a link, but if you are ignoring this issue, have a go at the recent updates to New Mexico's amphibian pet laws. Yes, you can get permits for some species if you do not mind paying out a few grand. No, you can not yet permits as the bulk of species are blanket banned...

[Iratus ranunculus]

Hate to double post, but there are some gems in here I did not get a chance to cover because my roommate and I are hot-seating on the only internet connection.

John if you would like I wrote scientific review article over Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis. It's long, but I assure you I did an excellent job on it and have a full page of around 15-20 references that I used. Let me know, because maybe it could be posted under a link or something.

And where is this published? When i write a term paper, that is completely unpublishable, I have to use more than that per page just to avoid being accused of academic fraud.

My question I will ask when the time comes is, what happens when a shipment tests positive? Will the animals be treated or destroyed?

I would imagine they would be destroyed. Treating requires a course of fungicide treatment that is likely to kill the frog anyway,

If a ban goes into place will they be required to give up our names and have our animals destroyed while everyone else keeps theirs because they don't know about them? I am second guessing registering any more.

There is not ban going into place. No one is persecuting people who keep frogs.

I know they will be coming after me - after all I keep a few of those fungus spreading frogs that will eventually destroy the world.

Take off the tinfoil hat.

Seriously, the problem with groups like Defenders of Wildlife, they don't see the benefit of captive breeding programs. I would like to see zoos and other serious amphibian hobbyists get together and work on saving these animals.

They already are. Or have you not been paying attention to the Amphibian ARK?

That having been said, the proper place for amphibians to continue existing is not in captivity. It is where they are supposed to be. In the wild. That does not preclude keeping them in captivity, but when you have to maintain them in captivity in order to keep the species alive like we do Axolotl's you have failed and are merely trying to stave off the inevitable.

... Unless the species in question has been a lab rat for 200 years like the Axolotl and Xenopus.

Terry, i could not agree more. If I could figure out a way to convince the herpetologists and zoos once and for all that there are a good many "amatures" around doing real work with these animals that is just as valid as the work they are doing, I would. I feel this gap will ultimately doom the species the "big" budgets ignore.

Such as? Who on here has the resources required to breed say... Massive numbers of Rana muscosa? Do you have environmental growth chambers and other apparati used to induce reproduction? Do you know how to perform artificial fertilization with frogs?

Do you do research into the underlying causes of amphibian declines so that captive bred specimens can be re-released?

What percentage of animals bred by hobbyists would do anything but go to other hobbyists? Practically none. The only successful population reintroduction programs I have ever heard of have been done by professionals. Unless there is a group of hobbyists raising condors or whooping cranes I dont know of. As a matter of fact AZGF and the Phoenix Zoo (along with the Fort Worth Zoo) are doing a very good job breeding large numbers of Lithobates chiricahuensis. It is professionals keeping amphibian species such as the entire genus Atelopus from being eaten alive by Chytrid Fungus, not hobbyists.

Frankly your statement is laughable.

The sheer pettiness of the scientific community...

What pettiness? The idea that we, the people who usually spend our entire lives as hobbyists and then go to school for 9-12 years (depending on program) and then study amphibians professionally might know what we are talking about a tad better than someone who keeps a few Pyxicephalus or Bombina?

That people do not even take the time to read the rules proposed by the FWS before spouting off is mind blowing. The rule being proposed is in principle the same thing done with food animals. You know that FDA inspection stamp on the packages of meat you buy? It is pretty much like that. I suppose the epidemiologists, vets, and agricultural scientists who contribute to this form of regulation are being petty, and think themselves more knowledgeable than those who raise cows as pets who may be hampered if old Betsy dies and they want to take the meat to market without it being inspected first.

Nevermind of course the damage that could be done from Mad Cow, or pathogenic E. coli stains.

Please do, I have never really gotten involved in stuff like this but I will go to war over this one.

What? You actually want people shipping around animals infected with chytrid?

Again... READ THE RULE CHANGE!

As I am on my phone I cannot provide a link, but if you are ignoring this issue, have a go at the recent updates to New Mexico's amphibian pet laws. Yes, you can get permits for some species if you do not mind paying out a few grand. No, you can not yet permits as the bulk of species are blanket banned...

Or I can just post the text of New Mexico's new laws, complete with commentary for those who are not fluent in legalese.

19.35.7.8 IMPORTATION OF LIVE NON-DOMESTICATED ANIMALS: It shall be unlawful to import any live non-domesticated animal into New Mexico without first obtaining appropriate permit(s) issued by the director except those animals identified within the species importation list group I. Permits will only be issued when all application requirements and provisions have been met. Failure to adhere to or violation of permit provisions may result in the applicant/importer becoming ineligible for importation(s). The pendency or determination of any administrative action or the pendency or determination of a criminal prosecution for the same is not a bar to the other.
[19.35.7.8 NMAC - N, 7-30-10]

I see nothing in here that is objectionable, and it does nothing to stop people from trading in things already in the state.

A. Species Importation List: The director of the New Mexico department of game and fish shall develop a species importation list. The species importation list shall be established, maintained, updated or amended by the director as species information and concerns become available and are identified. The species importation list shall be grouped into the following minimum importation “groups” based on the following criteria:
(1) Species importation list group I are designated domesticated animals and do not require an importation permit;
(2) Species importation list group II may be for live non-domesticated animals that are not known to be either invasive or dangerous and do not present a known risk to the health, safety or well-being of the public, domestic livestock or to native wildlife and their habitats.
(3) Species importation list group III may be for live non-domesticated animals that present minimal or manageable concerns that will require specific provisions that must be met prior to issuing an importation permit to address health, safety or well-being of the public, domestic livestock or to native wildlife and their habitats.
(4) Species importation list group IV may be for live non-domesticated animals that are considered dangerous, invasive, undesirable, state or federal listed threatened, endangered, C.I.T.E.S. appendix 1 or a furbearer. The importation of these species are prohibited for the general public but may be allowed for, scientific study, department approved restoration and recovery plans, zoological display, temporary events/entertainment, use as service animal or by a qualified expert.
(5) Any species of live non-domesticated animal not currently on the species importation list will be designated group IV until such time as another determination is made by the director.

Oh wait? You mean you actually need to prove to the state that you can take care of and contain animals that may cause damage to you, others, or if released... the environment? Shock! The Horror! You mean you cannot have animals as pets that are endangered in other states, federally, or internationally protected? WOW. I am shocked! This law is so horrendously draconian it is sickening!

APPLICATION FOR IMPORTATION:
A. Any applicant requesting an importation permit for non-domesticated animals must submit the following information with the application:
(1) a containment or confinement plan indicating where and how the species will be maintained;
(2) a current and valid certificate from an accredited veterinarian certifying that each animal or rearing facility of origin has been inspected and is in good general health, disease free or that each animal or rearing facility of origin tests disease free for any specific disease(s) following the testing requirements and procedures as identified by the department during the application process, except;

You mean for species that might be problematic within the state of New Mexico, like Bullfrogs or something, you have to show that they will be securely housed and that they are free of Chytrid Fungus-for which bullfrogs serve as asymptomatic carriers? Tyrants!

(a) the department may approve an animal supplier that is currently enrolled in an accredited animal breeding program or facility health monitoring standards such as NPIP, AZA, or other government sanctioned program;
(b) the department may approve detailed and verifiable facility of origin health monitoring plans and records to be submitted by an organization(s) in lieu of a health or rearing facility inspection certificate from an accredited veterinarian;

So... the facility of origin or who you buy the animal from in-state can comply with this law so that you dont need to do all of the legwork yourself? How reasonable.

(3) proof from the county and city into which the animal will be imported and held that possession of the animal is allowed;
(4) proof that all necessary federal permits have been obtained;
(5) proof that the requested species does not possess or have the immediate potential to carry infectious or contagious diseases and;

Oh heaven forbid that the state make sure you are not doing anything illegal...

(7) any importing person or entity must notify the department of game and fish within 24 hours of any disease indications or symptoms that manifest themselves among the imported animals.

You mean if you find disease in your stock, you have to report it? Oh no!

B. Additional conditions for the importation of a dangerous animal; applicant shall agree to the following provisions before an importation permit is approved:
(1) enter into a department approved written agreement releasing the department from liability;
(2) agree to meet all department approved posted warning requirements;
(3) agree to provide a department approved written warning to any person receiving such animal;
(4) government agencies or other entities as designated by the director may be exempted from the liability or warning requirements in this subsection.
C. All application fees are non-refundable.

And if the animal is dangerous you have to make reasonable assurances as to safety, and deal with liability?

Certainly New Mexico's new laws are horribly draconian and target private collectors and are not in any way intended to regulate those who import large numbers of animals from known suppliers into the state...

These are not baseball cards. They are animals which can in some instances be dangerous, carry disease, and to whom we have certain moral obligations-not only to them, but wild populations within the state. Regulation is necessary.

[John]

Please stop treating the other posters like children, and tone down the sarcasm. Your approach/attitude is just annoying, not productive, so even if you have good points to make, no one is going to pay attention to them.

[Iratus ranunculus]

Please stop treating the other posters like children, and tone down the sarcasm. Your approach/attitude is just annoying, not productive, so even if you have good points to make, no one is going to pay attention to them.

You are the Admin. I will do as you request. Though my personality precludes completely getting rid of the sarcasm. That would be impossible. I do however feel inclined to defend my actions in this manner.

I am of the opinion that an argument deserves to be addressed in a manner proportionate to its merit. If an argument is rational and well informed, but in my view incorrect, then I have no problem not patronizing my opponent. If however an argument is ill informed and irrational, not only will I shred the argument, but I find that sarcasm and general snark are excellent ways to make someone see how asinine their position is-if they are ever inclined to change their mind.

If someone cannot separate their pride from what is true, then that is their problem. Not mine. Such individuals remove themselves from reasoned discussion by definition. They are simply incapable of having one, regardless of my tone. They will resort to emotion and pig-headedness eventually anyway.

[John]

Iratus, it's possible to discuss a topic, make a point, and even disagree without being offensive in the process. Somehow 99.9% of the people on the forum manage that. You too can accomplish this with little effort, and make your point. In fact, you will be more persuasive if you do.

[Kurt]

Why is it that herp hobbyists in general seldom actually read the text of rule changes or legislation before getting into an uproar about them?

I think its people in general. Just look at the big uproar over Healthcare reform. The right had a lot of people so scared over it. Did any one of these scared, paranoid people actually read it? Probably not, its too long to read, so they listened to the pundits and got angry.
I have read the proposal and I agree with it, so does Frank Indiviglio. Spot testing needs to be done on imports. Not every frog needs to be tested, just a few from each shipment. There is no need at this point to panic or get paranoid.

[Iratus ranunculus]

I think its people in general. Just look at the big uproar over Healthcare reform. The right had a lot of people so scared over it. Did any one of these scared, paranoid people actually read it? Probably not, its too long to read, so they listened to the pundits and got angry.
I have read the proposal and I agree with it, so does Frank Indiviglio. Spot testing needs to be done on imports. Not every frog needs to be tested, just a few from each shipment. There is no need at this point to panic or get paranoid.

I think the herp community is particularly bad though. Particularly the snake people. There is a libertarian streak the size of Siberia, as angry as the Gaza Strip, and as short-sighted as a naked mole rat within that community. They are ideologically opposed to any form of regulation whatsoever. It is ridiculous.

[John]

There is a question of post-deletion which I see has happened with some of those by one named Crotalus (my roommate for the summer, and collaborator). If the posts were deleted for TOS violations, accidentally or through computer glitch (board reverting to backups or something) then that is one thing. Deleting them for the purposes of censoring is another and even if legal and within one's rights as admin/staff/mod is not morally OK. It would be nice if that was clarified. He is standing over my shoulder wondering where his posts went.

I deleted the posts between Crotalus and Paul (one of our moderators) because none of the posts were constructive or contributed anything to the discussion of the issue at hand. There is no legal question and I have complete discretion to remove posts that are not even vaguely on topic - the posts were silly.

Regarding your other points - I actually agree with you for the most part, though frankly I think you give herpetologists and zoos far greater praise than they deserve. Most zoo personnel know what they need to know to look after the animals in their care, and that's about it. There are exceptions (I am friends with a few) but zoos pay very little and therefore rarely recruit people who are at the top of their game.

Regarding scientists, as a research scientist with a PhD, a considerable list of research publications in peer reviewed journals, as well as other publications outside of my research but related to amphibians, and having worked in several countries, I can tell you that again, most scientists have relatively little knowledge beyond their own research focus, and state bodies do not pay enough to have many knowledgeable and experienced scientists at their disposal. Don't get me wrong, I truly wish you were correct in your view of scientists - that would be a nice country in which to live.

[John]

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists. I can understand their skepticism to a degree, but I know of several hobbyists who accomplish things such as breeding rare species first, finding range extensions for known species, etc. Whether they like it or not, many hobbyists are treasure troves of breeding knowledge and experience that could be utilized for the benefit of rare species. Thankfully, Amphibian Ark's director recognizes this, and through people like him we are starting to wake up so-called professionals that they have respect to give to hobbyists and a lot to learn from them too.

[Iratus ranunculus]

I deleted the posts between Crotalus and Paul (one of our moderators) because none of the posts were constructive or contributed anything to the discussion of the issue at hand. There is no legal question and I have complete discretion to remove posts that are not even vaguely on topic - the posts were silly.

If that is the case I will not press the matter.

Regarding your other points - I actually agree with you for the most part, though frankly I think you give herpetologists and zoos far greater praise than they deserve. Most zoo personnel know what they need to know to look after the animals in their care, and that's about it. There are exceptions (I am friends with a few) but zoos pay very little and therefore rarely recruit people who are at the top of their game.

True enough. However there is the matter of resources. If you want to start up a large captive breeding colony of some ranid frog or hylid, It requires a significant investment in space, money etc. A hobbyist cant do that. A hobbyist may (and often do) figure out how to get animals breeding on a small scale (Rain chambers, photoperiod etc) but to pull a species back from the brink of extinction and not have them later succumb to inbreeding depression is another matter. A lot of species also have issues when being re-released with disease. This is much easier to control in a professional facility like the one I was not allowed to enter at the Fort Worth Zoo for fear of chytrid contamination (The on at the phoenix zoo is another matter )

To really get something done on a large scale, you need technicians and other support personnel. Vets on staff, whole nine yards. An individual biologist may not be any more competent than a hobbyist at husbandry, but zoo facility has resources a hobbyist lacks-if only due to sheer monetary investment.

Regarding scientists, as a research scientist with a PhD, a considerable list of research publications in peer reviewed journals, as well as other publications outside of my research but related to amphibians, and having worked in several countries, I can tell you that again, most scientists have relatively little knowledge beyond their own research focus, and state bodies do not pay enough to have many knowledgeable and experienced scientists at their disposal. Don't get me wrong, I truly wish you were correct in your view of scientists - that would be a nice country in which to live.

Well that is why I was referring specifically to those who do research into amphibian declines and their causes. State agencies dont do a very good job on the pure research end, and reports filed within them are a pain to get access to. However someone at a university doing research on say... pesticide toxicity to amphibians is a good person to talk to. A hobbyist setting up a breeding program will not know anything more than the general broad trends they read in the news and in trade mags. They wont have access or the expertise to be able to find a good release site. They cannot test for chytrid to example to see if their site is contaminated.

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists

I have never experienced this, and if I have it does not rise to the level of pettyness. I fully recognize the ability of a hobbyist to give us information on how to breed animals that no one in the scientific community really works with. The hobbyists that do that though as a proportion of the community are few and far between and those that can do it can hardly be considered amatures.

[SludgeMunkey]

While I will not buy into your sarcasm and arrogance, I will point out your quote referenced the wrong law for New Mexico. The current 2010 proposal as seen on the NMFG site explains the new permit system. This is being implemeted as we speak.

[Molch]

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists. I can understand their skepticism to a degree, but I know of several hobbyists who accomplish things such as breeding rare species first, finding range extensions for known species, etc. Whether they like it or not, many hobbyists are treasure troves of breeding knowledge and experience that could be utilized for the benefit of rare species. Thankfully, Amphibian Ark's director recognizes this, and through people like him we are starting to wake up so-called professionals that they have respect to give to hobbyists and a lot to learn from them too.

as a scientist myself, I very much agree with this. There is, undoubtedly, an arrogance in the scientific community at large and a refusal to give due credit to the experience of people who have not gone to school for, like, ever, to get a degree. In some scientific fields scientists are catching on, however: here in Alaska, for example, there is now a much greater effort than ever to collaborate with Native Alaskans and draw on their vast traditional knowledge of animal ecology and behavior. Maybe the scientific herp community will someday value the vast amount of knowledge hobbyists bring to the subject...