Emotional Toad????

[petepann]

I may be giving this toad to much credit of having human like qualities but if I am correct, this story is just the pinnacle of pitifulness. It was feeding time at Frogville and as always the community was full of energy and excitement. I allow the crickets to run free in the enclosure when feeding. The residents seem to prefer it that way as do I. I love to watch them stalk and hunt. Well, Mr. Toad had his supper picked out and was zeroed in on his victim. But hesitation worked against him when the Copes Grey dropped straight down from his perch and stole Toads meal. That toad was not right the rest of the night. This is where and how he sat until he dozed off and woke back up a bit later with a entirely different attitude. He seemed to have forgotten the whole ordeal during his nap. Even the cricket frogs seemed to try and offer him comfort. As I stated before, I may be reading to much into this. Has anyone else ever experienced this type of behavior in frogs and toads? I believe I had a toad literally grieve himself to death just two days after the loss of its companion awhile back. At least, the wife seems to believe that was the case. Any thoughts on this matter?

[Cap10Squirty]

The toad might be afraid of that frog next to him... I would try feeding the toad individually instead of the community style. That'll probably resolve things.

[kueluck]

I don't think they have "those" kind of emotions and I wouldn't worry about it. My concern would be mixing the two species in the same viv. Hyla chrysoscelis like it much warmer and wetter than a toad , and then you have the whole sharing of the water issues. *shutters at the thought*

[petepann]

I have taken both of those thoughts into consideration. The viv has two pools and also two environments. One side of main pool is dry with a mix of sand, topsoil pea gravel. The other side of pool (in photo) is kept moist with live growing sphagnum moss and good drainage setup through the bottom of viv. Everyone has gotten along great until this incident.And even now, all seems to have been forgiven. The water gets changed and pools cleaned at least once, sometimes more, every day. And I hope yall can tell from the photos, that toad does not miss many meals. AT ALL!

[kueluck]

RED FLAG.....sand & pea gravel should be removed, even the top soil would concern me because of the contents of it. If either the frog or toad ingests this matter you may be asking for either a vet bill or death of an friend. If you're layering your substrate the safest thing on top should be coco fiber since amphibians can pass this through their systems if they ingest it. The Coco fiber, goes by Eco Earth from ZooMed. I'm curious as to how many different species you have in the viv and how big it is. So far you've mentioned Copes & Crickets frogs and a toad. I'm just trying to help you, not tear into you, hope you understand.

[Silkmoth]

I have some ghost mantids and a Whites tree frog (Freddy) in my 18/18/24 exoterra. The ghosts like the screen top and fine twigs to live on and Freddy climbs down to eat on the floor of the exoterra. I dont think he can reach the ghosts. They are small, 1 1/2 inches in length and light weight. Freddy's too big to get at them. They dont carry disease as far as I know and they will not try to attack him.

[petepann]

Well darn. The only reason I used this type of substrate was due to reading ( cant remember exactly where) that this was good to use. I remember reading that a small bit of gravel or sand helped with their digestion. This particular info sticks out in my mind because I have heard somewhere that birds do the same thing. I tell ya, if these guys are that sensitive to their surroundings, it is amazing that they survive at all in the wild. But it is time to clean the bottom so I will replace substrate with the coco fiber. I want happy healthyfrogs and toads.

[Mentat]

The wild is the wild and an enclosure is that; a place that even if safer, they can't get out of . In an enclosure frogs have limited diets, possibly have their natural ranging movements constricted, can't get away from other inhabitants, and have to deal with humans . Unless your enclosure is huge; can't see how you maintain different air humidity levels required for tree frogs and toads.

[kueluck]

Also in the wild their mortality rate is high. Less than 20% make it to adulthood, that's why I get upset when people take adults from the wild. Removing healthy breeding stock is just WRONG. Ok, I"m done with my rant......................for now.

[flybyferns]

Also in the wild their mortality rate is high. Less than 20% make it to adulthood, that's why I get upset when people take adults from the wild. Removing healthy breeding stock is just WRONG. Ok, I"m done with my rant......................for now.

Not a rant at all, Gail..........(come back soon )
We are glad to have you here , for these toad posts...... and at 'their backs'

Lynn

[Malduroque]

Your substrate issue has already been correctly addressed. As for species mixing, I'm a long time proponent of it under the right conditions. Your Copes and cricket frogs are probably good but as some have mentioned yours may not be a toad friendly environment.

As for the last statement of your original post: toads and frogs are not social animals, they do not have "buddies" and they do not have within their little brains the rather sophisticated emotional capacity for grief or joy or laughter or envy for that matter. The temptation to anthropomorphize is always great, but resist. Resist! I've been herping for about 50 years (caught my first lizard in 1963) and I have a little saying: "No matter how much of a mutual bond or kinship you feel you've developed with your toad or frog, remember one thing: If you were small enough or he were large enough he would eat you. Every time."

[Mentat]

...and I have a little saying: "No matter how much of a mutual bond or kinship you feel you've developed with your toad or frog, remember one thing: If you were small enough or he were large enough he would eat you. Every time."

Amen !