Multi-species Mantella display

[s6t6nic6l]

I would like to apologize if my participation in this thread has triggered a sensitive issue. This thread is actually too short for anyone to get too upset in comparison to other threads I have read lol.

When participating in any hobby there will sometimes be people taking a stance on either side of the fence for any particular aspect of said hobby. Some people take a particular stance based from experience and knowledge, others because of personal preferences, others because they went with a particularly appealing trend, maybe to fit into a particular community and some out of ignorance or what have you.

This is my humble opinion and it is only that but no one should own an animal just to breed them. They should care for an animal because they are concerned for their well being, they appreciate and understand that we humans being (the more intelligent and compassionate of all known species) have a commitment to act as stewards to any animal that comes into our care, that they are interested in studying and understanding that creature to the fullest extent of their abilities, and that they choose to do what they can to make life as healthy for the creature as they can. If breeding the animal helps in some manner for it and it's particular species to survive, especially if it is in some way endangered, then all the more power to the caretaker. If breeding allows for that animal to become plentiful and available to others who would like to care for such as well then that is good too.

"Standard conformist rules" are a part of the animal caretaking hobby because it is derived from many years of experience of a large group of devoted and knowledgeable people. When something becomes an accepted standard it is because it has been proven time and time again to be the better way to do something. It has been shown to be efficient and effective regarding the wellbeing of the animal in question. Conforming to this standard (even though there truly isn't any such thing) shows that the caretaker acknowledges that maybe just maybe others know a bit more then they do and that they lack the experiences that others may have had in the hobby. As for rules, there are no rules in this or any other hobby unless the person perceives the preferred methodologies others have come to use as rules.

Now having said that about conformity I am all for experimentation as well but and I need to stress this THE EXPERIMENTATION SHOULD NEVER EVER JEOPARDIZE THE WELLBEING OF THE ANIMALS BEING CARED FOR. This doesn't mean anyone here is harming their animals, just stating it as some people have the opinion that these creatures are disposable. If I fail at my experiment then hey I can go get some more - wrong and very inhumane perspective.

Long term care of any creatures suggests that for the caretaker to be efficient and effective in their interactions with the creatures that they care for that they be aware of potential dangers that exists for the animal as well as potential mistakes that can occur that may threaten the well being of the critter. To choose to ignore obtaining a basic knowledge of genetics, biological threats, social behaviours is just plain and simple ignorance on behalf of the wannabe caretaker. Some of the easiest ways to learn of these things is through books, videos and better yet the massive collection of experience obtained by previous caretakers that can be found in forums like this one as well as several others. I fail to see how anyone would care for any animal without coming across this issue at some point, usually shortly after obtaining the animal and maybe something is going wrong. An aware and educated caretaker is a humane and effective caretaker.

Yes, there are folks who maintain inadequate housing for their animals but sometimes small enclosures may be preferred - easier to clean and prevent health issues, breeding is more easier due to close proximity of the animals to one another, etc. Sometimes a particular species will dictate what type of setup is needed, sometimes it is more or less entirely up to the caretaker as to what they prefer to make available. If you have the resources, experience and knowledge to offer your animals larger environs for them to live in then all the better. No matter if the housing is small or large each can have its own unique set of challenges and requirements. Some assume that the larger the housing the less likelihood for mistakes. At first it may seem like that but that is not always the case as some caretakers may learn if certain things should happen. If their track record is good then I am pleased that they have been successful in their endeavors.

In the end it is up to the person what they care to do but hopefully they will keep in mind what many others have found beneficial for the animals and until they gain more experience and knowledge they will try their hand at the tried and true methodology that is easily available to them. I don't believe anyone here has ever to my knowledge claimed outright to be an "expert" (although we do have a few folks who via academia and life experience are valid "experts" in their particular fields) BUT they are definitely skilled and knowledgeable in what they do.

Many of the members here as well as the Moderators are all for discussing and sharing and sometimes we have differences of opinions but we do our best to avoid allowing it to become heated by choosing how we express ourselves because it does us no good to get lost in the negativity. It takes away from the hobby a bit and there are young folks here trying their best to be good caretakers and they need to see others demonstrate proper etiquette and how to discuss certain topics that benefit everyone.

if I did express my thoughts with a long and more meaningful post like yours maybe it would not have seemed more like a curt response to this issue. thanks for more insightful input to the matter.

[DigitalPunk]

Very well answered everyone. Nice to see a topic that could easily spiral into a negativity filled thread be handled by some truly passionate, mature and understanding people. How rare to find an online forum where people actually talk in forum post like they are talking to other real people. Very impressed.

[MantellaGuy]

Very well done George, I enjoyed and agree with your post entirely.
At the end of the day, you do need other peoples experience in keeping anything and none of us can say that they have have never looked up information prior to purchasing any species, if they did then I would be incredibly worried about how they maybe caring for their animals. Like George did say, you can't be an efficient and caring keeper without the information with how to care for the animals that you plan to look after.

Some of the best information you could use in the care requirements of any animal is, looking into the habitats they come from in the wild (BBC Weather covers a lot of places with Rainfall and Temperatures etc). Even then, for Mantella some of the information out there from "Experts" is second to none and taken from Wild encounters and studies of the animals which yet again, is perfect information to use.

However, I still would never agree with mixing and anyone that says that mixing has worked out for them have merely had the luck of the draw, not one individual is the same and some species react differently to others in any given situation that is presented to them. For example, mixing Mantella expectata and Mantella aurantiaca seems completely illogical in my opinion in the respect that both species require completely different habitat requirements (in the aspect of Humidity, Temperature, Substrate etc etc etc).
Mantella expectata for example is a arid dwelling species which require a temperature of approximately 23-28'c with a partially Sandy Substrate of a 60/40 % Ratio (Soil/Sand) with minimal Humidifying given them a choice of Damp or Dry substrate and from personal experience (and experience taken from others) I have encountered them more in the drier part of their enclosures not the damper parts. One of their localities is the Isalo Massif, the exact same location which Scaphiophyrne gottlebie is found, the Burrowing frog which hides more than 9 months of the year through times of drought
Mantella aurantiaca on the other hand is a Swamp dwelling species requiring much lower temperatures of about 18-23'c (Maximum temperature as that on a permanent basis) with temperatures higher than that for extended periods of time it causes muscle spasms (which I have witnessed first hand with individuals from other keepers) which is potentially fatal.
That alone shows that they are really and logically incapable of being compatible and just because they have been successful so far, doesn't mean it shall remain such or be the same for someone else. It is all down to the keeper at the end of the day and if the "Experts" or what I like to call them "Experienced" People keep species at very good standards which are appropriate to the species, what's wrong with following in their foot steps?

Keeping something to the sufficient husbandry standards that they require should not just be for breeding purposes but a permanent basis that is going to promote the health and well-being of the individuals in accordance to the Five Animal Needs (DEFRA has pretty much got the Freedoms into every aspect of the animal industry not just the Farming side of things.) I keep Mantella in assorted size exhibits but with each exhibit, the dimensions as based upon how many individuals are housed in such as enclosure (I keep trios of different bloodlines separate so I know which individuals are which).

I think this subject is a very touchy one and on this thread it has been debated both respectfully and maturely, but pointed towards the users first post; If you have to ask whether you can mix something or question it, you clearly aren't experienced, confident or knowledgeable enough to do so. So keeping them separately is both logical and safe, in respects to the keeper/hobbyist getting a decent night sleep and not having to worry about the possibility to waking up in the morning to deceased individuals. AT the end of the day, if it went wrong completely because someone decided to go with any information that a "perceived expert" has suggested, it would be the suggested party responsible for that. As experienced keepers, it's surely our duty in providing efficient and factual information on both history and husbandry requirements of the species in question.

[Geo]

I am glad to see the level and type of responses this thread is generating. Hopefully folks will have the patience to actually read it lol.

It is also nice to know that others share the mindset necessary to make this particular hobby an enjoyable and hopefully helpful endeavor for us all and more importantly for the wee little critters in our care.

Interestingly enough the topic of this thread is one that has been debated numerous times before and sometimes causes a rift and gives birth to a "them" and "us" approach in some forums. The one thing about Frog Forum that I find different is that we are a bit more easy going here and not necessarily high strung on proving ourselves to be Gods of Amphibia. When a discussion does arise that is intellectual in nature it usually retains that perspective rather then becoming a match of who can spew out more facts faster. Since I first joined this forum I have learned a lot that has complimented my own personal research (including the whole issue of housing and inter-species mixing). Whenever I was in doubt of something I had studied I would bounce it off what I could find here that pertained to it and payed attention to what others have done regarding whatever that particular issue was. It has helped me to become a more effective and efficient caretaker and thankfully my frogs enjoy the benefits of what I learned.

Regarding this thread it comes down to asking yourself what species do you plan to care for, why are you thinking it is ok to mix different species, what would the outcome be if mating takes place and they breed, what do you intend to do with the hybrid offspring and so on. If you can answer those questions in a way that your answers seem to coincide with the general approach of the community then maybe you are on track. If not then why approach it as you have been. Honesty is a trademark of a good caretaker.