Estivation question

[DesertHeat]

I keep the temps in my house fairly consistent year round and as a result the temps in the enclosure remain constant. It's it ok to skip estivation or should I lower the temps and let my little guy take a winter nap?

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

[Jakub Urbanski]

Even if you are not planning any breeding, estivation seems to be crucial.

[GrifTheGreat]

I keep the temps in my house fairly consistent year round and as a result the temps in the enclosure remain constant. It's it ok to skip estivation or should I lower the temps and let my little guy take a winter nap?

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

You do not have to Aestivate your frogs. There is no documented extended lifespan whether you do or don't. It is not necessary unless you plan to breed.

[Jakub Urbanski]

Well, from my personal experience I can tell that frogs being estivated tend to be stronger and less prone to disease...

[Lija]

It is not possible to prove or even to state that aestivation will make them less prone to decease or be stronger, too many variables involved. To date it is not documented that aestivation have any impact on well being of a frogs or their immunity and honestly I doubt it will ever be.

Dangers of aestivation if done not correctly is far greater then possible positive impact if any. There is no need to subject a frog to this unless for breeding. Breeders usually know what they are doing. However I suggest to keep eye on frogs clues, if it wants to eat less, or sleep, let it be, but maintain temps and humidity on a same level. This way sometimes they may rest a little, but won't go into actual aestivation.

[Mentat]

Well, from my personal experience I can tell that frogs being estivated tend to be stronger and less prone to disease...

Interesting statement! How do you measure "stronger," which myself take it to mean "healthier." Also, what diseases are we talking about? Please do share your observations with us, since being a breeder you do have lots of frogs to draw data from.

... Dangers of aestivation if done not correctly is far greater then possible positive impact if any....

Totally agree with Lija's statement. This forum has many cases of frog owners calling for help when they tried to estivate their frogs and it went deadly wrong. Estivation is for experienced breeders that know what they are doing and can control the temperature, humidity and photoperiod variables to extent required.

[Namio]

Hi desertheat, to answer your question I totally agree with Grif, Lija, and Carlos that You wouldn't have to estivate your frog. On a side note, I agree with Carlos that Jakub has made some intriguing statements regarding his experience relating to estivation and better immune system (?). I'm too hoping Jakub would touch more on that subject.

[DesertHeat]

Thank you everyone. Given that I'm new to this I think I'll keep things constant for now. I don't want to inadvertently harm Fergie due to my inexperience.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

[Lija]

I'm very interested in it too, there should be something that Jakub noticed that makes him think this way, very interesting statement.

I'm just thinking to make any correlation between better immunity, lifespan and aestivation you should have 2 huge control groups that have identical or almost identical genotypes, keep them in exactly same conditions starting from egg, feed exactly the same, maintain same activity level ( no breeding). And record all findings through their all life, so the whole process might last 20+ years... But how interesting it would be!

[Mentat]

I'm very interested in it too, there should be something that Jakub noticed that makes him think this way, very interesting statement.

I'm just thinking to make any correlation between better immunity, lifespan and aestivation you should have 2 huge control groups that have identical or almost identical genotypes, keep them in exactly same conditions starting from egg, feed exactly the same, maintain same activity level ( no breeding). And record all findings through their all life, so the whole process might last 20+ years... But how interesting it would be!

You are on right scientific track Lija; but actually think could be simpler and smaller using small sample statistics. The origin could be equalized among frogs by using brothers and sisters from same litter born at same time in year as wild stock. So let's say we start with 48 babies. As you stated, all will be brought up exposed to same food, enclosure type, and environmental conditions. Then around 6 month mark we could assign frogs into 4 subgroups of 12 frogs each, populated by both male and females. Two of those groups will be estivated and 2 used as non-estivated controls.

At 6 month mark; we would expose 1 subgroup of each estivated/non-estivated groups with a know non-lethal parasitic pathogen found in wild populations (sorry but it's science ). Then around same age they estivate on the wild, we would induce estivation in two of the sub-groups (one infected and one non-infected). Once we bring out of estivation, can conduct fecals on all frogs and see if there is a difference in the parasite population between estivated and non-estivated frogs. So in a bit over one year we start gathering data !

Then for a couple months can start making comparisons in regards to overall health, growth, etc. Scientist can play with many variations like pathogen type, response to treatment, breeding a group, etc. and keep interest several years; but should have lot's of raw data to draw a basic conclusion in like 3 years or even in less if starting with larger groups. Think this could be a fun herpetological thesis project if it wasn't for the couple years required to conduct it.

Still hoping Jakub shares more of his observations with us. There are many subjects science has not looked at (like in this case) or does not have the measuring capability to prove or disprove; but we can still gather great knowledge from observation .

[GrifTheGreat]

It would take a bit longer. The frogs would need to be at least 1 year to 1.5 years of age for the safest Aestivation due to young frogs dying prematurly during dormancy. It has been found that a cool down does help the frog heal. Being exposed to slightly cooler temps can assist in healing and fighting disease. Makes sense because most bacteria and viruses require a certain temp in order to replicate and attack the body. Without the needs of the pathogen met it will not be able to get a foot hold on the frog and the frog"'s immune system can iradicate it accordingly.

Edit; Just to elaborate. Cool down does not mean Aestivate. Lowering the ambient air temperature not to iduce a dormancy period.

[Namio]

Carlos just opened a can of worms (Jakub, too, in that regard). Excellent approach and input from both Carlos and Grif. I suppose we can agree on raising a frogs to at least one year of age before attempting estivation. I'd recommend to have more than one clutch of tadpoles--the more the merrier! But often times researches are limited by money, time, and space.

I was thinking somewhere along the line of what constitutes a frog's immunity. Frog immunity has two components--innate and adaptive responses (see below for more details). First it lies on their skin. The innate immunity is determined by the antimicrobial peptides defenses. It can be quite simple as most of those peptides have already been successfully isolated and sequenced. And the innate immunity can be determined by the production/concentration of these peptide defenses. With PCR (DNA replication) and genetic sequencing, we can test for significant differences in the concentration of antimicrobial peptides produced by individuals in our control (no estivation) and treatment (estivation) groups. This part is nice and clean for a scientific study. It is when you have to start introducing pathogens to frogs that it gets tricky, because the variables multiply.

This brings me to my next point, the adaptive immunity. This is the second defense mechanism that will kick in when the innate immunity (skin peptide defenses) fails. It's initiated by T and B lymphocytes (commonly known as the white blood cells). It gets trickier because we now need to test frogs with different kinds of pathogen, with the same amount of exposure & period, and how these frogs respond. Assessing how well the frogs are handling the infection is also tricky. Carlos had already provided us with parasites and fecal matter counts, which is great. However, there are many types of pathogen that may need to be included. Bacterial, viral, fungal, and etc. Do we assess success and failure by death? But if they all live, then do we do it by weight loss? For sure tricky business. Especially after the first part we may not have frogs left to test the second part due to the lethal nature of the conventional PCR. Not sure if non lethal swabbing (real time PCR) is an option.

[GrifTheGreat]

Carlos just opened a can of worms (Jakub, too, in that regard). Excellent approach and input from both Carlos and Grif. I suppose we can agree on raising a frogs to at least one year of age before attempting estivation. I'd recommend to have more than one clutch of tadpoles--the more the merrier! But often times researches are limited by money, time, and space.

I was thinking somewhere along the line of what constitutes a frog's immunity. Frog immunity has two components--innate and adaptive responses (see below for more details). First it lies on their skin. The innate immunity is determined by the antimicrobial peptides defenses. It can be quite simple as most of those peptides have already been successfully isolated and sequenced. And the innate immunity can be determined by the production/concentration of these peptide defenses. With PCR (DNA replication) and genetic sequencing, we can test for significant differences in the concentration of antimicrobial peptides produced by individuals in our control (no estivation) and treatment (estivation) groups. This part is nice and clean for a scientific study. It is when you have to start introducing pathogens to frogs that it gets tricky, because the variables multiply.

This brings me to my next point, the adaptive immunity. This is the second defense mechanism that will kick in when the innate immunity (skin peptide defenses) fails. It's initiated by T and B lymphocytes (commonly known as the white blood cells). It gets trickier because we now need to test frogs with different kinds of pathogen, with the same amount of exposure & period, and how these frogs respond. Assessing how well the frogs are handling the infection is also tricky. Carlos had ady provided us with parasites and fecal matter counts, which is great. However, there are many types of pathogen that may need to be included. Bacterial, viral, fungal, and etc. Do we assess success and failure by death? But if they all live, then do we do it by weight loss? For sure tricky business. Especially after the first part we may not have frogs left to test the second part due to the lethal nature of the conventional PCR. Not sure if non lethal swabbing (real time PCR) is an option.

Well the main problem is that all pathogens that infect frogs can be lethal to them. There is no such thing as nonlethal pathogens when it comes to amphibians. All are potentionally fatal without treatment.

[Namio]

Yes I agree that many pathogens can be lethal, but more often that they are not. Take chytrid for example, it is devastating populations in the tropics, but outside of the tropics most amphibians are living with the infection and does not always develop chytridiomycosis, the lethal disease. How do I know that? There is plentiful evidence that chytrid is globally distributed to the point that if there's amphibian, there's chytrid, and yet records of mass extinction and population declines have only been observed in the tropics. What about those that are infected in the neotropics and temperate zone? Many of them live with the infection. Ranavirus is another good example of a potentially lethal pathogen that are not usually lethal.

Ceratophrys species on the one hand, are definitely vulnerable to chytridiomycosis. So I'm afraid chytrid infection will yield to high percentage of death.

edit: one question worth asking would be when a pathogen (e.g. chytrid) becomes pathogenic (e.g. Pathogenic).

[Mentat]

... I was thinking somewhere along the line of what constitutes a frog's immunity. Frog immunity has two components--innate and adaptive responses (see below for more details). First it lies on their skin. The innate immunity is determined by the antimicrobial peptides defenses. It can be quite simple as most of those peptides have already been successfully isolated and sequenced. And the innate immunity can be determined by the production/concentration of these peptide defenses. With PCR (DNA replication) and genetic sequencing, we can test for significant differences in the concentration of antimicrobial peptides produced by individuals in our control (no estivation) and treatment (estivation) groups. This part is nice and clean for a scientific study...

This is very interesting and would be cool to test both immunity levels, of control and estivated groups, after completing estivation and frogs are eating again. As a matter of fact, frog immunity as related to stress, could be another nice study. Many of our pets get all stressed out from shipment and new enclosures, not to mention all the stress from wild frogs capture, holding, and distributing. Comparing a stress free frog to one with simulated holding, shipment, and new enclosure could give out some interesting data that could be used to enhance a pet frog survival. We could see if either the innate, the adaptive, or some other unknown immunity factor is quickly affected and how to best deal with it .

Well the main problem is that all pathogens that infect frogs can be lethal to them. There is no such thing as nonlethal pathogens when it comes to amphibians. All are potentionally fatal without treatment.

Yes Colleen/Jerrod, and also frogs in the wild do survive with many of these local pathogens in their systems. As you mentioned before, cold might have to do with this, specially if we think of bacteria. Now my thought with intestinal worm parasites for example, would be that in nature, a frog would estivate during dry season with an empty intestine. Having no food source the hosted parasites would eventually perish and only some of it's egg forms would survive. When coming out of estivation, the frogs would be pretty much in a healthier state that when they started it . A similar process would happen to frogs that hibernate during Winter; with the frogs parasites not surviving cold temperatures and freezing .

[Jakub Urbanski]

Dangers of aestivation if done not correctly is far greater then possible positive impact if any. There is no need to subject a frog to this unless for breeding. Breeders usually know what they are doing. However I suggest to keep eye on frogs clues, if it wants to eat less, or sleep, let it be, but maintain temps and humidity on a same level. This way sometimes they may rest a little, but won't go into actual aestivation.

Well, i have to agree that a mistake in aestivation might be dangerous. Anyway - in an artificial environment we cannot control all parameters of the environment to the same extent. It is relatively easy with the humidity and temperature, but other factors such as atmospheric pressure are beyond our control. In Poland where I live, despite so called "moderate zone" we experience rapid changes of the pressure corrsponding to the weather changes. My observation is that if we do not correlate the outside weater pattern with the microclimate of the close environment, we expose the frogs to the stress. For example If we do not let them estivate in the season corresponding to the dry period, they tend to shed their skin more often... The stress make them more prone to the skin disease and infections, also they tend to die unexpectedly due to some kind of stress more frequently than the frogs subjected to estivation.
Physiology of all cold-blooded animals is highly dependent on weather conditions, and the estivation is a natural response to the changing environmental conditions of the dry period.

I fully agree with Lija and Carlos that it is hard to provide a hard evidence without the systematic scientific approach and long term observations. We did not performed large scale screening yet, though I am really tempted to do so and since we have enough frogs to do so, I will probably start the experiment with some of our froglets.

And what prompted me to think so? We do keep frogs for a couple of years (10 or so), but some threeyears ago I've opened a huge (as for the Polish standards) farm of feeder insects. With the virtually unlimited supply of live food, we have decided to start breeding the frogs on a large scale, to provide the "local" alternative to the US and Japan imported animals on the POlish and subsequently, EU Market. So we have started to gather a breeding group, buying all adult/subadult frogs available around. There were two main sources - pet shops, where the animals were given least care, less food and were subjected to the unvoluntary estivation just because of the recklesness of the shopkeepers and the second source - amateur keepers, usually omitting the estivation (afraid of the potential risks and willing to avoid the "boring" periods of their pets life). After two years of breeding attempts - I can say that the frogs form petshops were much more resistant to the changes of environment, more productive (ie. in means of a number of eggs, and rate of fertilization) than their counterparts of the same size/weight purchased from the amateour keepers. Also they response to the estivation and rain chamber was more straightforward... Of course a group of 50 or so frogs is too small to draw any far-fetched conclusions but... Frogs that were kind of used to the changing environmental conditions and the "dry periods" generally tend to be healthier and more productive in means of a number of eggs produced and mating activity - and in my opinion it is the only way to assess the potential benefits of the estivation...

[GrifTheGreat]

Well, i have to agree that a mistake in aestivation might be dangerous. Anyway - in an artificial environment we cannot control all parameters of the environment to the same extent. It is relatively easy with the humidity and temperature, but other factors such as atmospheric pressure are beyond our control. In Poland where I live, despite so called "moderate zone" we experience rapid changes of the pressure corrsponding to the weather changes. My observation is that if we do not correlate the outside weater pattern with the microclimate of the close environment, we expose the frogs to the stress. For example If we do not let them estivate in the season corresponding to the dry period, they tend to shed their skin more often... The stress make them more prone to the skin disease and infections, also they tend to die unexpectedly due to some kind of stress more frequently than the frogs subjected to estivation.
Physiology of all cold-blooded animals is highly dependent on weather conditions, and the estivation is a natural response to the changing environmental conditions of the dry period.

I fully agree with Lija and Carlos that it is hard to provide a hard evidence without the systematic scientific approach and long term observations. We did not performed large scale screening yet, though I am really tempted to do so and since we have enough frogs to do so, I will probably start the experiment with some of our froglets.

And what prompted me to think so? We do keep frogs for a couple of years (10 or so), but some threeyears ago I've opened a huge (as for the Polish standards) farm of feeder insects. With the virtually unlimited supply of live food, we have decided to start breeding the frogs on a large scale, to provide the "local" alternative to the US and Japan imported animals on the POlish and subsequently, EU Market. So we have started to gather a breeding group, buying all adult/subadult frogs available around. There were two main sources - pet shops, where the animals were given least care, less food and were subjected to the unvoluntary estivation just because of the recklesness of the shopkeepers and the second source - amateur keepers, usually omitting the estivation (afraid of the potential risks and willing to avoid the "boring" periods of their pets life). After two years of breeding attempts - I can say that the frogs form petshops were much more resistant to the changes of environment, more productive (ie. in means of a number of eggs, and rate of fertilization) than their counterparts of the same size/weight purchased from the Ã*amateour keepers. Also they response to the estivation and rain chamber was more straightforward... Of course a group of 50 or so frogs is too small to draw any far-fetched conclusions but... Frogs that were kind of used to the changing environmental conditions and the "dry periods" generally tend to be healthier and more productive in means of a number of eggs produced and mating activity - and in my opinion it is the only way to assess the potential benefits of the estivation...

Now that is a good observation. I have bought a few from Petshops and my largest (5.25 inch) female did experience a premature Aestivation when I purchased her. I do believe those frogs that are aestivated grow to their full potential in size. This could attribute to a more healthy frog.

Carlos, parasitic worms don't perish when the frog's gut is emptied. They will begin to eat the frog. This is why blood in the stool can be present when the frog is infected. Now this I believe is species specific though. Tapeworms being one of those devastating parasites.

[Lija]

great discussion everyone! it would be so great if anyone can do an actual scientific work on a subject.

explanation of more resistance of a frogs from a pet shops is because for them it is survival of the fittest, can you imagine what a hell road they need to go before then end up with someone caring, so many frogs will die, only survivors that are more resistant to everything will be sold. A frogs from a breeder are more lucky and these who would have dead going through pet stores, will be perfectly happy and healthy here. These frogs can be objectively be taken into consideration when comparing, as one group is already more resistant to begin with and will respond better to any changes in environment.

[Jakub Urbanski]

sure. anyway I think you underestimate the "keepers" sometimes it is much easier to survive in a forgotten tank, in midst of the petshop than "good care" or simple handling...

[GrifTheGreat]

sure. anyway I think you underestimate the "keepers" sometimes it is much easier to survive in a forgotten tank, in midst of the petshop than "good care" or simple handling...

Not necessarily. In my experience those forgotten in petshops most often die. If the substrate fully dries which is almost always does. Then the frog dies in dormancy. Especially if under substrate temps also are as hot and the ambient air. Disease and poor nutrition are also factors.