Hissers and cannibalism the test finally begins!

[demon amphibians]

As many of you have followed my Dubia+protein threads, you will remember that I promised to conduct an expirment to find out if Hissers will feed on Dubia if they are housed together. I will be conducting that expirement starting tomorrow. It wont be as extensive as my last expirment, but I plan on taking a month to get some solid documented information.
Many expert Roach breeders believe they will only cannibalize if moisture and food requirements are not met. Others believe that they will do so regardless. We will also take over-crowding into consideration in this.
Like my last experiment I will seperate the roaches into different groups but less this time. The groups are as follows:
1. Adult hissers+baby dubia under normal conditions (meaning proper food and moiture will be provided)
2. Adult hissers+baby dubia (food and moisture will not be provided I will not let them starve to death but they will be very hungry and thirsty)
3. Adult hissers+baby dubia under normal conditions but I will pack them in tight. (over crowd them)
4. Adult hisser+ baby dubia over crowded and I will not provide food or water.
I will do each experiement for 5 days at a time. when the 5 days are up I will return the roaches to the colonies and select new ones and different sizes. I will repeat for 1 month. Then I will post my final findings and all the stats.
If anyone has any input please fill free to throw your two cents in. I always love great ideas and feed back.

[Mentat]

What is the purpose of mixing these two roach species in one enclosure?

[demon amphibians]

What is the purpose of mixing these two roach species in one enclosure?

I personnally have no use in doing so. My colonies are far to large and it would make sorting impossible. However I have been asked this question many times from people who want the two species but only want one enclosuer they always ask, "if the two have the same housing requirements why not keep them together if they are small in number and no need to sort?" The leading argument from others is that the hissers will eat the dubia. I am one who thinks that the hissers will only eat the dubia if the proper amount of moisture and food is not provided. But my opinion isn't a solid answer. So a member suggested I do a study. Well granted that was several months ago my apologies for putting it off for so long.
I am also putting together a personalized care sheet and this is a segment I would like to add to it.

[JeffreH]

I'm short on time and will go over your thread more thoroughly when I can (probably later this week) but for what its worth, I have been rearing G. portentosa with Elliptorhina javanica and an additional small colony with B. dubia and have been finding that the G. portentosa almost always dominate. It will take time, as the adult hissers are more 'dominant' than the nymphs and will outcompete other species and some of their own kin for space and resources. The prime "territories" (i.e. best hiding bark/branches, warmest locations) are always dominated by the Malagasy Hissers while the other species are forced to reside in less-ideal niches.

My setup is somewhat naturalistic, with bark, log material, and some plant matter in there. The Hissers take the best locations and force the other species to hide under smaller, broken and fragmented pieces of bark and debris in the enclosure in this setup. It has been about 4 months not, and the G. portentosa are reproducing and growing in numbers and my E. javanica in the same bin have been reduced to half their numbers (out-competed and cannibalism by G. portentosa).

With that being said - these colonies are not treat with perfect care. They are my lab pets and receive lunch scraps and occasional mistings...

[demon amphibians]

Thanks for the input Jeff I will certainly be looking for these behaviors. I can see how the hissers are dominate. Not just their larger size but they seem more to me like a stand and fight type of roach compared to the other speices i have who run if even slightly disturbed.

[Truffs1178]

Hope you get some good results. I'm hoping that they won't cannibalise each other as long as they are fed because I keep my four roach species in the same glass tank.

[Lija]

i'm just thinking what might be a reasoning for people to keep a few species together, save space? to have one bin instead of 2?
but for pure science i"ll be following this experiment, thank you!

[poison]

save space?

Pretty much the main reason.

I get asked a lot if they can be housed together as well. Never really can give a straight answer as I have never kept the colonies together.

I have had a few dubia nymphs in my hisser colony without insident but thats about it. I will be reading this too .

[REDEYEDWHISPER]

Good luck demon...although i guess this isn't a LUCK situation its a do or don't haha. Love to hear the results...please post ALL SPECIFICS As everyone knows that even the tiniest environmental changes make a big deal when it comes to experimenting.

[demon amphibians]

i'm just thinking what might be a reasoning for people to keep a few species together, save space? to have one bin instead of 2?
but for pure science i"ll be following this experiment, thank you!

For space is the only reason i have come across. I had several people at the super shows ask me if they could keep them together to save space and money on bins. I really couldnt answer the questions but hopefully what i find will give me in-site on how to give better advice not only to my customers but to everyone.

[demon amphibians]

Good luck demon...although i guess this isn't a LUCK situation its a do or don't haha. Love to hear the results...please post ALL SPECIFICS As everyone knows that even the tiniest environmental changes make a big deal when it comes to experimenting.

I do take the environment into account. And i am happy you brought this up i will keep them in the same temp and humidity i keep the rest of my colony's but i really should expand to other environments. If someone can provide some more info on how the environment can play a role in cannibalize it would only help the final analysis on the matter. If so i will expand my experiment.

[JeffreH]

Purely speculation, but presumably a higher temperature might increase metabolic rate to some extent. This may increase demands for energy intake that might result in competition for food or 'desire' to cannibalize.

Additionally, if a sort of basking spot were created this might be prime space to occupy. The larger or more dominate species could hold these positions easier and reap the benefits of increased temperature - higher energy demands and potentially a faster growth and reproductive rate. A basking area could be prime real-estate to hold on too and can help turn the tide in increasing numbers in the long run of one species, but I don't think it would cause any immediate, detrimental effects. Again, only speculating.

I think measuring how prolific roach species are in the presence of one another is sort of arbitrary for people trying to rear them as feeders (unless you are severely space limited and have to keep them together or some atypical circumstance). No matter what, rearing a culture with its own kind will result in higher reproduction. But it is interesting to see species-species interactions and observe how coexistence may be possible based on behaviors of each individual. I'd kind of like to know how differently my lab colony would have turned out if I took better care of them. My money's still on the Hissers though! =)

[favela381]

Hi,
I keep my hissers and dubia's together in a two foot bare glass tank, heat mat under one end, water and food at the other, temp 26 to 31 c, humidity 20%, no misting, and my colony is doing fine, no cannibalisation that I have noticed and they get along fine. I was told so long as you don't keep winged and wing eaters together they will adapt and breed.
hope this helps those with limited space or cash. X

[demon amphibians]

ok Jeff now you got me thinking.. I think I will expand. I will create a larger test environment for them. Though it may not be right a way but I think after I do my smaller experiments I will upgrade to a full sized bin to conduct this study. I totally see your points and to me they make perfect sense. But just the fact of the competition for food will make all the difference. The larger, stronger species will prevail that is no question. (which has been proven of the importance of separating the young from the adults, we are talking both species.) That alone will effect breeding. But how much, is the question. Now that part may not be in my means to follow. After all I have a full time job (military), And 45 frogs and toads to care for. I would have to set up a camera of some sort in which at this time I can not do. There is so much to take into consideration. Not one female has the same number of babies per berth no matter what you feed, temp or age of the female. That alone makes my study very difficult to observe. But I will do my best. Thanks Jeff. You always have good input.

[demon amphibians]

Ok so the results are in and what i have found is quite interesting. sorry it took so long for me to update this post i have been working very long hours. due to small enclosures i had many failed experiments My test kept suffocating and over heating. tests like this are much harder then one might think. But i have gather good info. I might do a few more tests for additional info. Right now i am working on organizing the data i have gathered and will post as soon as i get some free time.

[wcbpolish]

I personally am interested in seeing the results, as I would like to keep B. dubia with G. portentosa. When can we expect the results?