Noob In Need of a Frog!

[Edisons 10K]

Hi! I know, I know, I probably should be posting on the actual frog forum intro thread, but as I'm only on this site for the sheer purposes of wanting to own and learn more about Pacman frogs, I figured I'd jump right to the chase.

First, I should point out that I am not new to the exotic pet field. I've owned lizards and snakes and turtles over my lifetime, and worked at both an aquarium and a zoo for a couple years, but I am entirely new to Pacman frogs. I used to love the one featured on Dead Like Me, but admittedly never really looked into owning one until now. I just assumed with its size and pretty colors that it was some super expensive, super difficult to care for Hollywood frog. Much to my surprise, in digging around for my own frogs to be used on screen in a project I'm currently working on, Pacman frogs are apparently fairly inexpensive and easy to care for! *facepalm* If I'd known that, I would've had one or more as a pet starting back in high school when DLM was actually on air. I've wasted so many years!

Anyway, back to the point, I would now love to own a Pacman frog or two not only as awesome pets, but to use here and there in a web series I'm working on. No, they wouldn't be on screen for very long, and yes, I know they can be cranky so I'd have to be careful with them. I've worked with animals on screen before and I've been an avid animal lover since before I could even speak, so I have no intention of letting these beautiful babies be abused in any way. That being said, I do need frogs that really pop on the camera, so I'm thinking I should go with the Ornates or maybe Albinos, right? I really like the Ornates that have the really bright greens and reds in their coloring.

Annnd, if anyone is still reading this long ramble and explanation, now I need advice! First, where to buy??? If I'm looking for a frog that will keep its coloring for the most part into adulthood, what am I looking for in a baby frog? Who should I trust in purchasing (I see online that Petco and Petsmart sell Pacman frogs, but I'm also seeing that they often mislabel the breeds, plus I have a tendency to distrust big chains. Any feedback on the health of these frogs?)? There's a lot of online breeders I noticed, but with them it seems like a gamble. I say I want an Ornate, but how do I know who I can trust them to send me what I'm looking for? Also, any advice on whether I should get a male or female? Does one tend to be brighter in color than the other (I've already seen that there's a difference in size, which is common with most animals)?

Aside from buying, I also seem to be seeing a mix of advice for proper enclosures from various sources, some of them almost exact opposites of what others are saying. So from the mouths (or fingers, as it were) of you expert frog owners, how should I house my frog so it'll be at its healthiest? Again, I want colors to stay bright if possible, and a bigger frog would be better for filming.

Then there's handling. I'm aware that these guys aren't like the iguanas I used to have who kind of loved being picked up and toted around on my shoulders. I will, however, need them to at least be chill enough for my actors to pick up without getting their fingers chomped on, lol. Are there better ways than others to get these guys to accept being handled, or is it just luck of the draw in personality types when I get my baby or babies?

Any help would be vastly appreciated. I've been working the canine field for the past 14 years now, so I'm afraid my amphibian knowledge is a bit rusty. I'm sure my frog isn't going to sit for a hot dog, lol!

I thank you in advance for any advice you can give, and I hope to hear back from you soon!

[GrifTheGreat]

First read this. Frog Forum - Pacman and Horned Frogs - Ceratophrys - Care and Breeding

Second if you're looking for an animal that can be frequently handled or even moderately handled then frogs aren't for you. They do not like to be handled and stress from frequent handling can be devastating to their health. Hands must be washed everytime before and after the frog is handled.

Third these species of frog are one of the few that bite as a defence and they will bite if they feel threatened. Also they may mistake yours or your actors hands as food since they tend to try and eat just about anything that will fit in their mouth(fingers included).

Fouth these frogs are nocturnal meaning that they sleep all day and are active at night so this will put a damper on your filming. They also have specific needs that must be met or they will become stressed and not eat.

Frogs are look, but don't touch pets. Frequent handling is literally bad for their health. Pacman frogs do get stressed easily until they get used to the owner's presence and don't normally react well to strangers. They can become accustomed to you and some handling, but mostly for bathing and enclosure cleaning.

I'm not trying to discourage you from owning one, but I am warning you that what you're wanting to do with the frogs is not how they should be cared for.

Contact IvoryReptiles or mikesfrogs here on the forum for purchase.

[Edisons 10K]

I wasn't planning on putting them in the series with any more frequency than they did in Dead Like Me, which wasn't very often, and mostly you'd just see the frog in its enclosure or chilling on the floor for a second or something. There'd only be a few times where I'd need an actor to actually handle the frog. He wouldn't be out for very long; and if for whatever reason his particular scene was running longer than I'd like, that's why I was interested in having more than one frog. I could swap them out as needed to give them a break if shoot was going longer than intended. I do want to make sure that I'm putting as little stress on the animals as possible, but considering the fact that anything in film and TV (especially a big one like Dead Like Me) revolving around the use of animals is so heavily regulated in the care and use of any animal, I also know that it's not impossible to put these frogs on screen. I would just have to be very careful in how long they'd be out of their enclosures for; and if they're having a bad mood day, shoot a different scene that day. To me it seems like working with a snake as a belly dancer (another hobby of mine). You work around the snake's health and mood and its feeding cycle. If conditions aren't exactly right for the snake, you don't use it in your performance that night. I have absolutely no qualms with adjusting my shoot schedule around the frogs, lol.

I've also been reading up and watching videos on things like using non-chlorinated water to wash your hands with before handling the frogs, how to pick them up, etc, etc, which is something that any actor who will need to hold the frog will be trained in before interacting with the little guys. I actually will be doing a lot of night shooting, too, so I can definitely make sure that any of the frogs' scenes are all done later so I don't have to mess up their normal sleep cycles as much as possible.

I am trying to be as responsible with this project as possible, which is why I'm on here in the first place asking for any advice that anyone is willing to give. I don't want anyone to think that I'm just some jerk filmmaker who doesn't care. If I was, I would've just run off to PetSmart and bought a frog and did whatever I wanted with it.

That being said, thank you so much for the detailed information and links. I want to learn as much as possible about these guys before I even think about putting one on the set, because I have no intention of simply using them as props. They'll live with me and be my own personal companions, as well, which is a big deal for me. My pets are basically my kids, so I want to make sure they're well cared for.

Any further advice from anyone on here would be appreciated! Thanks!

[GrifTheGreat]

I wasn't planning on putting them in the series with any more frequency than they did in Dead Like Me, which wasn't very often, and mostly you'd just see the frog in its enclosure or chilling on the floor for a second or something. There'd only be a few times where I'd need an actor to actually handle the frog. He wouldn't be out for very long; and if for whatever reason his particular scene was running longer than I'd like, that's why I was interested in having more than one frog. I could swap them out as needed to give them a break if shoot was going longer than intended. I do want to make sure that I'm putting as little stress on the animals as possible, but considering the fact that anything in film and TV (especially a big one like Dead Like Me) revolving around the use of animals is so heavily regulated in the care and use of any animal, I also know that it's not impossible to put these frogs on screen. I would just have to be very careful in how long they'd be out of their enclosures for; and if they're having a bad mood day, shoot a different scene that day. To me it seems like working with a snake as a belly dancer (another hobby of mine). You work around the snake's health and mood and its feeding cycle. If conditions aren't exactly right for the snake, you don't use it in your performance that night. I have absolutely no qualms with adjusting my shoot schedule around the frogs, lol.

I've also been reading up and watching videos on things like using non-chlorinated water to wash your hands with before handling the frogs, how to pick them up, etc, etc, which is something that any actor who will need to hold the frog will be trained in before interacting with the little guys. I actually will be doing a lot of night shooting, too, so I can definitely make sure that any of the frogs' scenes are all done later so I don't have to mess up their normal sleep cycles as much as possible.

I am trying to be as responsible with this project as possible, which is why I'm on here in the first place asking for any advice that anyone is willing to give. I don't want anyone to think that I'm just some jerk filmmaker who doesn't care. If I was, I would've just run off to PetSmart and bought a frog and did whatever I wanted with it.

That being said, thank you so much for the detailed information and links. I want to learn as much as possible about these guys before I even think about putting one on the set, because I have no intention of simply using them as props. They'll live with me and be my own personal companions, as well, which is a big deal for me. My pets are basically my kids, so I want to make sure they're well cared for.

Any further advice from anyone on here would be appreciated! Thanks!

What else would you like to know?

[Edisons 10K]

Reading through that care link you sent me. Noted on the handling paragraph - I hadn't thought about an actor responding to a bite by tossing the frog, lol! I'm used to reptiles and therefore have little reaction to a bite, but my actors aren't me. I'll make a note for the script to have the humans interact with the frog while it's sitting out on a solid surface, and I'll be the one moving the frog from one spot to another since it'll be used to me. I'll only have an actor handle the frog if and when I'm 100% certain that they won't freak out if it decides to be grumpy, lol. And again, anyone handling the frog will have properly washed their hands before there's any touching involved, and I'll keep it minimal.

[Edisons 10K]

What else would you like to know?

Oh, you got back to me faster than I thought, lol! Basically, from the perspective of what I'm trying to accomplish, if you were going to use a frog for a TV shoot (I know you probably wouldn't, but roll with me on this one, lol), is there anything specific you'd be doing to make sure the frog is being treated correctly while still being able to use it on set? We've established probably doing the frog's scenes in the evening, as little handling as possible is for the best, I've mentioned having multiple frogs so I can trade them out if they look like they're getting stressed out, and keeping them out of their enclosure for any longer than it takes to get the scene is a no-no. As far as feeding regimes go, would you think that the frog should have eaten recently before putting it on set? If they're anything like the snakes I mentioned above, they tend to be a lot more mellow after they eat (meaning less chances of getting bit), but you also need to give them time to digest a bit before working with them. Granted I don't intend on feeding the frog, then two seconds later pulling it out of its tank, but what would think would be a good time between feedings to potentially have the frog out of its enclosure?

[Edisons 10K]

Sorry, I'm probably going to be asking a lot of questions, lol. This one is 100% care-related, not film related:

I live in Los Angeles where the general day temperature stays between 75 and 95 any given day of the year for the most part. I do not live in an apartment that has heating or air conditioning. It looks like for the most part that I probably won't need a heating pad or anything during the day for these guys to be comfortable, but in the winter the temps can drop to as low as freezing overnight. Should I just get one of the heating pads to slap on the side of the tank like the care sheet suggested, or would a heating lamp of some sort be better for at night? I'm not sure if having a light on all night long would be a good idea... then there's the summer days when it gets really hot in here. I do have a swamp cooler for my room, which is probably perfect considering it also raises the overall humidity levels in the room, but is there anything else I should be doing to make sure the frog doesn't get too hot? it's gotten over a hundred outside several times, but in my room with the cooler on it doesn't usually get over 90.

[GrifTheGreat]

They tend to not like loud noise so you will want to keep them away from loud noise. They don't like bright lights so you will need to figure out how fo film them quickly so they are exposed to it as quick and as least as possible.

Feeding them a day before might be enough time, but sometimes they are oportunistic eaters and will always be hungry. They can be very tempermental and change mood quickly. Keeping as stress free as possible is what you will need to do. So only handle the frog as necessary and try to keep your filming rather quick. Now not all of them are flighty and aggressive. Some are just plain lazy. If you're lucky you may get a lazy one and it won't be bothered as much. Care and handling should remain the same though.

They must always be handled with wet hands. Dampend with dechlorinated water. This keeps their skin from getting irritated as much and helps not to remove their protective mucus layer. They take time to grow depending on sex and some can get pretty large. Adult size within 5 to 8 months can be common. Always handle the frog carefully and gently so it does not see you as a threat.

It may sound childish, but talking to them helps with stress. If they are accustomed to your voice they will not be as stressed. They like familiar surrounding and sounds.

I'm not sure what other advice to give during filming. Just have the frog's best interest in mind.

[demon amphibians]

i live in San Diego and i currently have 5 pacs that i need to get off my hands they are babies and super cute. They are left over from the San Diego Super show that i didn't sell. I bought a bunch from LA reptile planning on selling at LA show in January but that just fell through. so i have extra frogs on my hands. Selling them for 25 a peace. buy 4 get one free. also i will give you 100 of the appropriate sized dubia roaches for free.

[DVirginiana]

Just putting it out there, I really can't recommend using any type of frog for filming. Even with the most docile species, you definitely run a risk of getting a nervous frog that is stressed by any sort of interaction: Even someone walking past an enclosure with three sides covered can be enough to cause them to stop eating... Just search old forum posts. Even with the calmest species, it's a common problem.

Eh... Honestly, there's just no way to do it without it being unnecessarily stressful to the frog or risking a bite-and-toss to anyone nearby. Even in situations where the stress isn't a serious issue with most reptiles, it can cause serious hunger strikes and even death in frogs. There's really no way to spin performing with a herp that is beneficial to the herp... At best, it doesn't cause lasting problems from stress.
Just to be VERY clear: I'm not accusing you of abuse. I really do commend you even bothering to look for info on a species you want to work with in this sort of situation. But it's definitely not the 'path of least stress' for a frog. I just have pretty strong opinions about using animals in entertainment that can't understand the process or really benefit from behavioral rewards (like a dog).

If you won't consider ANY other herp than a pac; I'd recommend a non-albino Cranwelli. Cheap, fairly calm, species, and albinos may develop vision issues (and get bitey) with exposure to light. If you'd consider another frog: White's tree frogs tolerate handling better, sit still on most perches, and are brightly colored. PLUS; they have adorable faces and tend to follow action in a manner that an audience could relate to.

Any way you might consider something like a bearded dragon? They come in some wonderfully bright paint jobs, deal with commotion well, sit still, ect. Have you seen Dead Bodies? It's a great Irish film that features a beardie in much the same way you're talking about using a frog-- and a beardie would be a fraction of the bite risk, and not run NEARLY as high a risk of stress/handling issues.

[Edisons 10K]

They tend to not like loud noise so you will want to keep them away from loud noise. They don't like bright lights so you will need to figure out how fo film them quickly so they are exposed to it as quick and as least as possible.

Feeding them a day before might be enough time, but sometimes they are oportunistic eaters and will always be hungry. They can be very tempermental and change mood quickly. Keeping as stress free as possible is what you will need to do. So only handle the frog as necessary and try to keep your filming rather quick. Now not all of them are flighty and aggressive. Some are just plain lazy. If you're lucky you may get a lazy one and it won't be bothered as much. Care and handling should remain the same though.

They must always be handled with wet hands. Dampend with dechlorinated water. This keeps their skin from getting irritated as much and helps not to remove their protective mucus layer. They take time to grow depending on sex and some can get pretty large. Adult size within 5 to 8 months can be common. Always handle the frog carefully and gently so it does not see you as a threat.

It may sound childish, but talking to them helps with stress. If they are accustomed to your voice they will not be as stressed. They like familiar surrounding and sounds.

I'm not sure what other advice to give during filming. Just have the frog's best interest in mind.

No loud noises and don't hit them with the spots. Got it. And I have absolutely no shame when it comes to talking to my animals, lol. I do it all the time. It's a normal routine for me.

i live in San Diego and i currently have 5 pacs that i need to get off my hands they are babies and super cute. They are left over from the San Diego Super show that i didn't sell. I bought a bunch from LA reptile planning on selling at LA show in January but that just fell through. so i have extra frogs on my hands. Selling them for 25 a peace. buy 4 get one free. also i will give you 100 of the appropriate sized dubia roaches for free.

What kinds of pacs do you have? Are there pics? I'm hoping for two that look similar to start with.

Just putting it out there, I really can't recommend using any type of frog for filming. Even with the most docile species, you definitely run a risk of getting a nervous frog that is stressed by any sort of interaction: Even someone walking past an enclosure with three sides covered can be enough to cause them to stop eating... Just search old forum posts. Even with the calmest species, it's a common problem.

Eh... Honestly, there's just no way to do it without it being unnecessarily stressful to the frog or risking a bite-and-toss to anyone nearby. Even in situations where the stress isn't a serious issue with most reptiles, it can cause serious hunger strikes and even death in frogs. There's really no way to spin performing with a herp that is beneficial to the herp... At best, it doesn't cause lasting problems from stress.
Just to be VERY clear: I'm not accusing you of abuse. I really do commend you even bothering to look for info on a species you want to work with in this sort of situation. But it's definitely not the 'path of least stress' for a frog. I just have pretty strong opinions about using animals in entertainment that can't understand the process or really benefit from behavioral rewards (like a dog).

If you won't consider ANY other herp than a pac; I'd recommend a non-albino Cranwelli. Cheap, fairly calm, species, and albinos may develop vision issues (and get bitey) with exposure to light. If you'd consider another frog: White's tree frogs tolerate handling better, sit still on most perches, and are brightly colored. PLUS; they have adorable faces and tend to follow action in a manner that an audience could relate to.

Any way you might consider something like a bearded dragon? They come in some wonderfully bright paint jobs, deal with commotion well, sit still, ect. Have you seen Dead Bodies? It's a great Irish film that features a beardie in much the same way you're talking about using a frog-- and a beardie would be a fraction of the bite risk, and not run NEARLY as high a risk of stress/handling issues.

The series is a fantasy/fairy tale type gig and there's the occasional appearance of the frog king, hence needing a frog. I like the pacs for their size and colors, and that sort of comical but also almost regal look to them. I'm much more familiar with lizards, so if I could get away with using one I definitely would, but the series calls for a frog.

That's very good to know about the albinos, so I thank you for that information. I'll steer clear of those for filming then (though I might want one as a pet - they're pretty!). What I'll probably wind up doing is getting two pacs right off the bat, and hopefully at least one of them will have a more laid-back personality where it'll tolerate the film process a little more. If either of them loses their appetite over it then I'll try to work out something else, maybe get a third frog and hope that the new one does a little better. I'd be keeping them, btw, not handing them off to anyone else just because they didn't make good film stars, lol. I'm usually the sucker that rescues animals in need. I foster dogs as it is.

Anyway, if it doesn't pan out, it doesn't pan out. I'm not going to kill a poor frog over this thing. The tree frogs are a little smaller than I'd like, but I'll keep them in mind if it looks like this is going to be just too hard on the pacs, so thanks again for the information.

Thanks, in general, to everyone on here for not busting out the pitchforks and flames on me just for mentioning wanting to use these guys in film. I was honestly expecting a lot more backlash, so I very much appreciate you all being so civil and helpful. I highly respect your love and expertise for these frogs, and I want you to know that I'm taking everything you all say under careful consideration.

So as of now I have:

No albinos.
As little handling as possible, and filming the frog in its enclosure would be better than taking it out to film it.
If handling is needed, hands must be moist with dechlorinated water (and anyone who's iffy about the frog will never pick it up for fear of them dropping it or worse, throwing it!)
As little noise and light as possible.
Try to stick to evening shoots.
Feed them a day before shoot.
If they already seem agitated or off in any way prior to their scene, skip it and come back to the scene another time when they seem more ready.
Keep the time they have to be on set to the bare minimum.
Talk to the frogs (me, being the handler, anyway)
Cease using any frog that doesn't seem to be tolerating the process very well.
Probably minimize cast and crew as much as possible to only those who absolutely need to be present for the scene.

Anything else? I plan on making like a sheet of rules that'll be all over set and passed out to all cast and crew. I want them to think of me as "the crazy frog lady" by the time this thing is done, lol. I just want to make sure everyone takes this seriously enough, though, because again, the last thing I want is for one of the animals to get sick over this thing.

Thanks again for everything. Please mention anything else you can think of if there's more, and I plan on keeping you all updated on the progress of this thing as I go along. That way I can hopefully keep you all at ease over this project as much as I possibly can, considering the circumstances.

[dragonfry]

I tell you what, pac man frogs bite hard!
I purchased mine at a trade show in 1992.
She picked me i guess. Because i watched her eat another froglet in the bin with all the baby frogs and when i poked at her she bit my finger too. So i told the lady "I'll buy that one!" Figured she was a good solid feeder. She was about the size of a silver dollar back then. She still with me today and she about a pound and still tried to bite me when she wants to be fed. But i have taken Ed to teach ins and other child friendly events over the years. I don't allow children to handle her, she's too big.
I think a good healthy fron can handle some stranger holding then from time to time. But daily probaly not. But if she were a prop peice in a film i don't think that would be harmful.
Fry

[Edisons 10K]

Lol, I still have a scar on my thumb from where my iguana bit me back when I was like 14. He was still fairly young at the time, thank goodness, otherwise I might've lost the tip of my thumb! He was pretty tame, too. We were sitting out on my driveway just basking in the sun when a giant moving truck came flying past. Scared the bejeezus out of the poor guy and he just lashed out at the closest thing to him, which happened to be me, lol. I know all too well the unpredictability of an "attack!"

[GrifTheGreat]

I'm not sure what your timeline is for when you will be shooting this, but you may want to look into getting sub-adults or adults. Babies are the most readily available, but they start out small - about the size of a half dollar. Most will take a few months to reach mature size. Also, babies can go through some dramatic color changes, so two frogs that look alike as babies might end up looking very different as adults, not to mention possible size differences since you can't accurately sex the babies. Granted, the general populace is not going to notice if you switch out a male for a female. I pretty sure "Lassie" changed gender quite a few times....

If you do go through with this, let us know when and where to watch! I am curious to see this.

[reptileszz]

Have you ever seen a pixie frog? They are ginormous! Just wondering as size seems to be of some importance here.

Carole

[GrifTheGreat]

Have you ever seen a pixie frog? They are ginormous! Just wondering as size seems to be of some importance here.

Carole

Ummmm......the reason I didn't recomend a Pyxi to this member is because of the much higher chance of being bitten and having their hands maimed and a possible broken finger. Also not very bright in color even though the shear size would attract attension. Some are laid back, but when it comes to a hungry frog attack a Pyxi takes the cake or rather your finger. Lol!

[Edisons 10K]

Hahaha! I hadn't seen a Pyxi before, but given the whole broken finger/maiming possibility, I think I'll pass, lol. In response to when the shoot will be, it's going to be several months before we're ready to be on set, which is exactly why I was starting to look for my frogs now. I was hoping if I raised them up from baby froglings that they'd be a lot more trusting of me when I needed to handle them as larger frogs. I kind of figured there'd be a possibility that the coloration may change as they grow, but I'm hoping if I get two from the same breeding that look similar as youngsters that odds will be better that they'll look similar enough when they're older that I can trade them out. I'm sure there'll be those super detail-oriented people who'll be like, "That frog has a longer spot on its left side than it did five minutes ago! Omg! It's a different frog! For shame!" but honestly I don't care that much, lol. Anyone who's searching for those little flaws doesn't know how to watch TV just for the fun of it. Like you said, no one really seemed to notice that Lassie was a boy half the time, lol. I'll definitely pass on the station to you guys when it gets on the air, but it's going to be a long time! I'll keep posting updates along the way. I'm going to check out Repticon on the 23-24th, so maybe I'll pick up my frogs then. I'll post pics as soon as I get them!

[GrifTheGreat]

Hahaha! I hadn't seen a Pyxi before, but given the whole broken finger/maiming possibility, I think I'll pass, lol. In response to when the shoot will be, it's going to be several months before we're ready to be on set, which is exactly why I was starting to look for my frogs now. I was hoping if I raised them up from baby froglings that they'd be a lot more trusting of me when I needed to handle them as larger frogs. I kind of figured there'd be a possibility that the coloration may change as they grow, but I'm hoping if I get two from the same breeding that look similar as youngsters that odds will be better that they'll look similar enough when they're older that I can trade them out. I'm sure there'll be those super detail-oriented people who'll be like, "That frog has a longer spot on its left side than it did five minutes ago! Omg! It's ía different frog! For shame!" but honestly I don't care that much, lol. Anyone who's searching for those little flaws doesn't know how to watch TV just for the fun of it. Like you said, no one really seemed to notice that Lassie was a boy half the time, lol. I'll definitely pass on the station to you guys when it gets on the air, but it's going to be a long time! I'll keep posting updates along the way. I'm going to check out Repticon on the 23-24th, so maybe I'll pick up my frogs then. I'll post pics as soon as I get them!

Raising them from babies is the best way. Oh and Giant African Bullfrogs look like this. His name is Günther and he is a Subadult Male.



You have many colors of Pacman to choose from, but some of the more rare morphs are expensive as are the rare species.

[Edisons 10K]

What type is that red/orange one? It doesn't look like it has the red eyes that I normally see on the albinos, meaning it wouldn't have that same light sensitivity, right? I definitely like the more colorful ones. I find the blue to be a super pretty color. I was emailing Mike about his frogs and he's selling baby blues right now for $60. I'm going to see what LLL might be selling at Repticon next weekend (online they have the Ornates for $25, so I'm hoping they might have some at the con), but if they don't have anything there then I'll probably make the drive to Mike's and pick up some of his frogs. He's about an hour drive from me, and given the choice between being able to go and choose my own frogs or worry about having them shipped through the mail, I'd much rather go pick them up myself. Plus, a cheaper frog plus shipping is actually more expensive than the $60 to go get them in person. Shipping is expensive!

*Edit - I also just checked the distance to the LLL actual stores. They're about an hour and a half to two hours away from me, so pending on what they say at con, I may just drive down to pick up some ornates from them at the store. That'd probably be my cheapest route if I want to save money....but Mike's blue babies are so pretty!!!!

[GrifTheGreat]

What type is that red/orange one? It doesn't look like it has the red eyes that I normally see on the albinos, meaning it wouldn't have that same light sensitivity, right? I definitely like the more colorful ones. I find the blue to be a super pretty color. I was emailing Mike about his frogs and he's selling baby blues right now for $60. I'm going to see what LLL might be selling at Repticon next weekend (online they have the Ornates for $25, so I'm hoping they might have some at the con), but if they don't have anything there then I'll probably make the drive to Mike's and pick up some of his frogs. He's about an hour drive from me, and given the choice between being able to go and choose my own frogs or worry about having them shipped through the mail, I'd much rather go pick them up myself. Plus, a cheaper frog plus shipping is actually more expensive than the $60 to go get them in person. Shipping is expensive!

*Edit - I also just checked the distance to the LLL actual stores. They're about an hour and a half to two hours away from me, so pending on what they say at con, I may just drive down to pick up some ornates from them at the store. That'd probably be my cheapest route if I want to save money....but Mike's blue babies are so pretty!!!!

All three Albinos have red eyes. Those are a Morph by Ivory Reptiles called Rubies.

I can definitely vouch for Mike and if you want a variety to choose from buy from him or the Ivorys. Both produce healthy vibrant frogs.