Stress?

[elliotulysses]

Hello. I am concerned about the behavior of my two frogs. Is it normal for ACFs to swim in a very active fashion during water changes? They seem to swim quite a bit, but I also used a turkey baster (which seems to stress them out) before the adding of water. I only recently started using the turkey baster, so maybe that is where the stress is coming from?
I use seachem prime with my water, which also adds a coat for them not to be stressed, but are there any other products that one may use to try to keep them calm? Or is there no reason at all? As they do calm down a bit after the water changes.


Right now they are both juveniles and living in a 2.5 gallon aquarium. It is more high than it is long, but they will be moved to a 20 gallon when it is completely cycled.
I do daily water changes/clean ups of waste. They range from 20% to 40%, trying to do a bigger one every friday. I feed them about once every two days to every other day. I'm feeding them reptomin with calcium to help bone growth.
I went to the pet store this weekend and found that the water was good, except some higher than average ammonium. I did a larger change that day and have been very adamant about keeping up with water changes to get it to a more reasonable level.
Tomorrow I am going to the pet store to check my water again in that enclosure.

Also, I am purchasing a new product. It's called Lymnozyme and it is supposed to prevent redleg and other icky things. Has anyone used it?

[elliotulysses]

Is stress coat a good option for this?
Today they aren't swimming frantically and seem pretty calm B)

Should I not use seachem prime, as it only "removes" ammonia for 48 hours? I have a simple water conditioner that does similar things to seachem, so maybe it is best to stick with the 20% water changes?

[elliotulysses]

I figured this may help the situation, giving the exact details of how my frogs are living.
SOME INFO MAY CHANGE. I'M GETTING MY WATER CHANGED TONIGHT.

1. Tank Size and volume of water in it (full, 1/2 filled, etc.)? Nearly full, but with enough room for them to breathe.

2. Number of inhabitants including all frogs and any fish?: Two juvenile ACFs

3. Water source and any conditioner treatments? : Distilled, no additives water or tap water. Both get treated with Seachem Prime before being added to a tank.

4. Water Temperature and how is it heated (if so)? Room temperature, heat does not get overly hot, does not get overly cold.

5. Water chemistry levels: pH; Ammonia (NH3); Nitrites (NO2); Nitrates (NO3)? Note that if you do not have test kits, most aquariums/pet shops will do complimentary tests if you take a clean water sample. : Going to the pet store today to get an accurate reading.

6. Describe any filter system including model and media? No filter, the tank is 2.5 gallons. I do daily water changes of about 20%[/COLOR]

7. Substrate type? bare bottom

8. Tank set-up (plants (live or artificial), driftwood, hide outs and other decor? - How were things prepared prior to being put into the tank? : All rinsed with chlorinated water, then put in empty tank. There is one vase with two entrance and exit holes.

9. Main frog staple food and any treats? How often you feed? Reptomin Floating sticks and shrimp pellets. I feed them about every other day or every three days.

10. CA, vitamins, and any other additives used (how often)? There is calcium in the reptomin.

11. Lighting set-up and hours it's used? Regular daily lighting of on/off.

12. When is the last time frog ate? They both ate last night

13. Have you found poop lately? I am not too sure what ACF poop looks like! I may have or I may have not. Someone please describe this to me?

14. A picture would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pics are fine). I think I have fairly recent (about a week or two old) pictures on my photo album.

15. How old is the frog? : Unsure! My guess is about one and a half to two months. It was unclear how old they were when purchased

16. How long have you owned him/her? I have owned Carlos for over a month and Cecil for almost a month.

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred? : I believe they are captive.

18. Any medications in the water (treatment dosis and for how long)? : No medicine

19. Any salt in water (how much)? None

20. Is the tank kept in a high or low traffic area? : A fair traffic area

21. Describe tank maintenance to include water changes, cleaning, media changes, etc.): I clean excess food or (presummably) waste daily with a turkey baster. Then I make sure the water is about 20% down and I do a water change with Seachem Prime treated water.

[elliotulysses]

Also, here are some links to videos if this helps anyone determine if they look stressed or if it is normal behavior

Instagram

Instagram

[carsona246]

Make sure the temperature is the same, but in a small tank it's normal for most aquatic things to be a little more active when you are doing a waterchange. I wouldn't worry about it unless they start to show signs of illness.

[Mentat]

Hi Eli, frogs in video look fine. Answered some of your questions below. If it was me; would move the frogs into the larger tank now. Get a small bottle of Seachem Stability and follow the label instruction and treat new tank with frogs in it for two weeks or until nitrites hit zero. Then follow on with normal water changes (around 20% weekly) using dechlorinated tap water. Seachem Prime is good and would stay away from any conditioners with Aloe due to binders interfering with frogs skin functions .

...

3. Water source and any conditioner treatments? : Distilled, no additives water or tap water. Both get treated with Seachem Prime before being added to a tank.
Should not use distilled water with frogs, live plants, or fish.

6. Describe any filter system including model and media? No filter, the tank is 2.5 gallons. I do daily water changes of about 20%
Frogs being more "active" during your cleaning or water changes is normal. They are just trying to get away from the giant hands and can't.

13. Have you found poop lately? I am not too sure what ACF poop looks like! I may have or I may have not. Someone please describe this to me?
When feeding ReptoMin poop looks similar to it.

[elliotulysses]

Make sure the temperature is the same, but in a small tank it's normal for most aquatic things to be a little more active when you are doing a waterchange. I wouldn't worry about it unless they start to show signs of illness.

My apartment tends to get a little warm during the day, but I just direct a tank to their holding area. The temperature is around 74 F

[elliotulysses]

Hi Eli, frogs in video look fine. Answered some of your questions below. If it was me; would move the frogs into the larger tank now. Get a small bottle of Seachem Stability and follow the label instruction and treat new tank with frogs in it for two weeks or until nitrites hit zero. Then follow on with normal water changes (around 20% weekly) using dechlorinated tap water. Seachem Prime is good and would stay away from any conditioners with Aloe due to binders interfering with frogs skin functions .

What I've been finding as stool ends up being kind of dust-like.
I did at a tiny bit of API's Stress Coat + because they seemed a little upset, but it does make sense as to why they are scared.

My big tank is not completely cycled and I was using janitorial ammonia to get the biofilter started. Should I do a complete, or nearly complete change then use Seachem?

[elliotulysses]

Also it is very reassuring to see that their behavior is pretty normal! And they look so majestic when they swim.
Should Prime be a good product to deal with stress? It is supposed to help with reducing stress.

[mpmistr]

You may be over thinking your approach to these frogs. They are actually quite easy to keep. The room temperature of 74F is a bit warmer than Xenopus prefer but it's not life threatening, if you could get it a few degrees lower in your home they'd probably appreciate it.

Anyways, ACF to swim around a lot, they're also very skittish. My small male is kept in a 10 gallon tank so he can grow large enough to join my big tank.. at night he swims around like a total spaz. They like to swim, they're fairly active frogs actually.

I believe these frogs are being kept in 2.5 gallons? Way too small for these guys, but I know it's a temporary home until your larger tank cycles. That being said, they probably aren't jumping for joy being in such a small tank right now.

In my opinion ACF with a good 'run away' reflex is a sign of a healthy frog. If the frog did not react to stimuli, I'd be worried. In the wild things that scare them should induce a flight instinct, it's in essence how they keep alive. Of course they shouldn't be startled often but it does happen. (My frogs freak when I close the living room door some times)

If you are using Prime don't bother with Stress Coat, they in essence do the same thing.

[elliotulysses]

You may be over thinking your approach to these frogs. They are actually quite easy to keep. The room temperature of 74F is a bit warmer than Xenopus prefer but it's not life threatening, if you could get it a few degrees lower in your home they'd probably appreciate it.

Anyways, ACF to swim around a lot, they're also very skittish. My small male is kept in a 10 gallon tank so he can grow large enough to join my big tank.. at night he swims around like a total spaz. They like to swim, they're fairly active frogs actually.

I believe these frogs are being kept in 2.5 gallons? Way too small for these guys, but I know it's a temporary home until your larger tank cycles. That being said, they probably aren't jumping for joy being in such a small tank right now.

In my opinion ACF with a good 'run away' reflex is a sign of a healthy frog. If the frog did not react to stimuli, I'd be worried. In the wild things that scare them should induce a flight instinct, it's in essence how they keep alive. Of course they shouldn't be startled often but it does happen. (My frogs freak when I close the living room door some times)

If you are using Prime don't bother with Stress Coat, they in essence do the same thing.

Unfortunately I don't have much control over my heat except for turning on/off a fan which is directed towards the tank. Later on, when they are in their bigger tank I can get the water to cool down to 68 F or so, which should be better?

And to be clear, they aren't fully grown, just kind of in a baby stage still. I would put them in the tank I'm cycling, but I would worry about their health! And I would have to probably do something like a 100% water change. And then, my aquarium is still not fully cycled.

[elliotulysses]

You may be over thinking your approach to these frogs. They are actually quite easy to keep. The room temperature of 74F is a bit warmer than Xenopus prefer but it's not life threatening, if you could get it a few degrees lower in your home they'd probably appreciate it.

Anyways, ACF to swim around a lot, they're also very skittish. My small male is kept in a 10 gallon tank so he can grow large enough to join my big tank.. at night he swims around like a total spaz. They like to swim, they're fairly active frogs actually.

I believe these frogs are being kept in 2.5 gallons? Way too small for these guys, but I know it's a temporary home until your larger tank cycles. That being said, they probably aren't jumping for joy being in such a small tank right now.

In my opinion ACF with a good 'run away' reflex is a sign of a healthy frog. If the frog did not react to stimuli, I'd be worried. In the wild things that scare them should induce a flight instinct, it's in essence how they keep alive. Of course they shouldn't be startled often but it does happen. (My frogs freak when I close the living room door some times)

If you are using Prime don't bother with Stress Coat, they in essence do the same thing.

Also I may look into something like this Marineland Classic 4 Gallon Hidden LED Desktop Kit at PETCO as a temporary home. Should I do something like purchase this and get Seachem Stability? Or, as I am waiting to find out
Just do a water change and use the Stability.

[Mentat]

Agree with Michael; these frogs are not fragile. The transfer can be done right now. Do not add any more ammonia to 20G and wait until ammonia reads 0. Make sure that janitorial ammonia has no other cleaning ingredients on it; if so, that could be very bad.

If 20G is full of distilled water do a 50% water change with dechlorinated tap before transferring frogs. Move frogs and start using the Seachem Stability for 2 weeks. You are done .

[mpmistr]

I agree with Carols in making sure that ammonia you are using does not contain ANY chemicals besides ammonia. Be very careful on that one because if there are other chemicals in there you will be headed for trouble. Also agree on the distilled water, never use it. Use tap+SeaChem Prime. I've personally never used SeaChem Stability but I doubt it would do much harm to try it.

When you read zero ammonia, zero nitrite, and nitrate under 20ppm it is time to add the frogs. Just please please please make sure the janitorial ammonia you used is 110% free of other harmful agents because they will surely kill your frogs I cannot stress this enough!! I did a little Googlin' and it appears that janitorial ammonia is usually 10% ammonia hydroxide. I assume this should be safe but I'm not sure..

I find snails make good cycling animals. They do not produce a ton of waste so they won't cause the water to become toxic to themselves but they will add enough 'snail poop' to cycle the tank. Some cheap ghost shrimp would do the job too, again very small bioload so properly filtered they should survive the cycle (not that they are long lived anyways 1-2 years tops). I am a bit paranoid with using chemicals in my tanks. I would throw an apple snail in there once the ammonia hits zero and see how he does, or some ghost shrimp. Shrimp are a good indicator of water quality, and if they survive the frogs will just eat them anyways and enjoy the treat.

[elliotulysses]

I agree with Carols in making sure that ammonia you are using does not contain ANY chemicals besides ammonia. Be very careful on that one because if there are other chemicals in there you will be headed for trouble. Also agree on the distilled water, never use it. Use tap+SeaChem Prime. I've personally never used SeaChem Stability but I doubt it would do much harm to try it.

When you read zero ammonia, zero nitrite, and nitrate under 20ppm it is time to add the frogs. Just please please please make sure the janitorial ammonia you used is 110% free of other harmful agents because they will surely kill your frogs I cannot stress this enough!! I did a little Googlin' and it appears that janitorial ammonia is usually 10% ammonia hydroxide. I assume this should be safe but I'm not sure..

I find snails make good cycling animals. They do not produce a ton of waste so they won't cause the water to become toxic to themselves but they will add enough 'snail poop' to cycle the tank. Some cheap ghost shrimp would do the job too, again very small bioload so properly filtered they should survive the cycle (not that they are long lived anyways 1-2 years tops). I am a bit paranoid with using chemicals in my tanks. I would throw an apple snail in there once the ammonia hits zero and see how he does, or some ghost shrimp. Shrimp are a good indicator of water quality, and if they survive the frogs will just eat them anyways and enjoy the treat.

Do you think the shrimp would have to be quarantined?

The ammonia I was using was just listed as 'Clear Ammonia' Ingrediants: Ammonium Hydroxide CONTAINS NO PHOSPHERUS. So it should be fairly pure.
Unfortunately, I am having trouble getting a hold of a nitrite testing kit, save for the strips, which are not nearly as reliable.

I am seriously considering just getting a new aquarium and filter and starting a cycle with Stability.

Only I am on my fourth week of cycling and it makes me feel like I had wasted my time and money.

[elliotulysses]

Agree with Michael; these frogs are not fragile. The transfer can be done right now. Do not add any more ammonia to 20G and wait until ammonia reads 0. Make sure that janitorial ammonia has no other cleaning ingredients on it; if so, that could be very bad.

If 20G is full of distilled water do a 50% water change with dechlorinated tap before transferring frogs. Move frogs and start using the Seachem Stability for 2 weeks. You are done .

I know that they are not fragile and are pretty hardy animals, but right now the ammonia is reading 0ppm from my API chart. I am just going to add some ground up fish flakes and siphon them out later.
I am going to the pet store to get my water checked out again, but unfortunately not for a few days. I hope to see if they have stability there. Sadly, the last time I went they had ammonia testing kits, nitrate testing kits, but absolutely no nitrite tests.

[elliotulysses]

You may be over thinking your approach to these frogs. They are actually quite easy to keep. The room temperature of 74F is a bit warmer than Xenopus prefer but it's not life threatening, if you could get it a few degrees lower in your home they'd probably appreciate it.

Anyways, ACF to swim around a lot, they're also very skittish. My small male is kept in a 10 gallon tank so he can grow large enough to join my big tank.. at night he swims around like a total spaz. They like to swim, they're fairly active frogs actually.

I believe these frogs are being kept in 2.5 gallons? Way too small for these guys, but I know it's a temporary home until your larger tank cycles. That being said, they probably aren't jumping for joy being in such a small tank right now.

In my opinion ACF with a good 'run away' reflex is a sign of a healthy frog. If the frog did not react to stimuli, I'd be worried. In the wild things that scare them should induce a flight instinct, it's in essence how they keep alive. Of course they shouldn't be startled often but it does happen. (My frogs freak when I close the living room door some times)

If you are using Prime don't bother with Stress Coat, they in essence do the same thing.

Also the stress coat adds aloe, which isn't so great for the fish.

I suppose being in a cramped, slightly warm space would make them stressed out, but hopefully not stressed out enough to get some sort of disease. As a new owner, I'm sure it's common to fear disease, but I should give them more credit. They are a popular lab animal after all. Especially with some genetic experiments and optogenetics.
It's pretty cool to think that you can have a pet that holds the future in it's hands--maybe even giving sight to the blind!

[mpmistr]

Order these things from Amazon, it's much cheaper than going to a local pet store (unless you have a local pet store you really want to support and carries it).

I always purchase my SeaChem products from Amazon and I can tell you for a fact the API Freshwater Master kit is almost 20 dollars cheaper on Amazon vs purchasing it at a local pet store or chain.

[elliotulysses]

Could shrimp pellets or some of this finely ground ADF food work as well as a snail at keeping the bacteria fed? The guy at the petstore said to try frozen shrimp, as in the kind people eat. I have no idea how to take that advice.

I MAY be able to get an apple snail or two or some ghost shrimp. The problem is my Nitrites seem to be way too high to really house anything.
Until then fish food/frog food? I want to get away from the chemical as well, but it was recommended on a fishless cycle (although they do say that in a pinch some food will do.

Here:
How to Do a Fishless Cycle: 9 Steps - wikiHow
The (almost) Complete Guide and FAQ to Fishless Cycling - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community

Should I continue to do this advice or go with Carlos?
I personally, would like to move them, as I think space may be the biggest stressor of all.

[elliotulysses]

Agree with Michael; these frogs are not fragile. The transfer can be done right now. Do not add any more ammonia to 20G and wait until ammonia reads 0. Make sure that janitorial ammonia has no other cleaning ingredients on it; if so, that could be very bad.

If 20G is full of distilled water do a 50% water change with dechlorinated tap before transferring frogs. Move frogs and start using the Seachem Stability for 2 weeks. You are done .

As I've said, this seems like the simplest solution.
Right now my ammonia says it's at zero, while the nitrites are sky high. Should I do a bigger water change and then add them after I add the Stability?
And I only need to use the Stability for two weeks? This sounds like heaven.

Would I need to continue to use the product when I get a sponge filter to seed in bacteria for itself?