Estivation question

[Jakub Urbanski]

Dangers of aestivation if done not correctly is far greater then possible positive impact if any. There is no need to subject a frog to this unless for breeding. Breeders usually know what they are doing. However I suggest to keep eye on frogs clues, if it wants to eat less, or sleep, let it be, but maintain temps and humidity on a same level. This way sometimes they may rest a little, but won't go into actual aestivation.

Well, i have to agree that a mistake in aestivation might be dangerous. Anyway - in an artificial environment we cannot control all parameters of the environment to the same extent. It is relatively easy with the humidity and temperature, but other factors such as atmospheric pressure are beyond our control. In Poland where I live, despite so called "moderate zone" we experience rapid changes of the pressure corrsponding to the weather changes. My observation is that if we do not correlate the outside weater pattern with the microclimate of the close environment, we expose the frogs to the stress. For example If we do not let them estivate in the season corresponding to the dry period, they tend to shed their skin more often... The stress make them more prone to the skin disease and infections, also they tend to die unexpectedly due to some kind of stress more frequently than the frogs subjected to estivation.
Physiology of all cold-blooded animals is highly dependent on weather conditions, and the estivation is a natural response to the changing environmental conditions of the dry period.

I fully agree with Lija and Carlos that it is hard to provide a hard evidence without the systematic scientific approach and long term observations. We did not performed large scale screening yet, though I am really tempted to do so and since we have enough frogs to do so, I will probably start the experiment with some of our froglets.

And what prompted me to think so? We do keep frogs for a couple of years (10 or so), but some threeyears ago I've opened a huge (as for the Polish standards) farm of feeder insects. With the virtually unlimited supply of live food, we have decided to start breeding the frogs on a large scale, to provide the "local" alternative to the US and Japan imported animals on the POlish and subsequently, EU Market. So we have started to gather a breeding group, buying all adult/subadult frogs available around. There were two main sources - pet shops, where the animals were given least care, less food and were subjected to the unvoluntary estivation just because of the recklesness of the shopkeepers and the second source - amateur keepers, usually omitting the estivation (afraid of the potential risks and willing to avoid the "boring" periods of their pets life). After two years of breeding attempts - I can say that the frogs form petshops were much more resistant to the changes of environment, more productive (ie. in means of a number of eggs, and rate of fertilization) than their counterparts of the same size/weight purchased from the amateour keepers. Also they response to the estivation and rain chamber was more straightforward... Of course a group of 50 or so frogs is too small to draw any far-fetched conclusions but... Frogs that were kind of used to the changing environmental conditions and the "dry periods" generally tend to be healthier and more productive in means of a number of eggs produced and mating activity - and in my opinion it is the only way to assess the potential benefits of the estivation...

[GrifTheGreat]

Well, i have to agree that a mistake in aestivation might be dangerous. Anyway - in an artificial environment we cannot control all parameters of the environment to the same extent. It is relatively easy with the humidity and temperature, but other factors such as atmospheric pressure are beyond our control. In Poland where I live, despite so called "moderate zone" we experience rapid changes of the pressure corrsponding to the weather changes. My observation is that if we do not correlate the outside weater pattern with the microclimate of the close environment, we expose the frogs to the stress. For example If we do not let them estivate in the season corresponding to the dry period, they tend to shed their skin more often... The stress make them more prone to the skin disease and infections, also they tend to die unexpectedly due to some kind of stress more frequently than the frogs subjected to estivation.
Physiology of all cold-blooded animals is highly dependent on weather conditions, and the estivation is a natural response to the changing environmental conditions of the dry period.

I fully agree with Lija and Carlos that it is hard to provide a hard evidence without the systematic scientific approach and long term observations. We did not performed large scale screening yet, though I am really tempted to do so and since we have enough frogs to do so, I will probably start the experiment with some of our froglets.

And what prompted me to think so? We do keep frogs for a couple of years (10 or so), but some threeyears ago I've opened a huge (as for the Polish standards) farm of feeder insects. With the virtually unlimited supply of live food, we have decided to start breeding the frogs on a large scale, to provide the "local" alternative to the US and Japan imported animals on the POlish and subsequently, EU Market. So we have started to gather a breeding group, buying all adult/subadult frogs available around. There were two main sources - pet shops, where the animals were given least care, less food and were subjected to the unvoluntary estivation just because of the recklesness of the shopkeepers and the second source - amateur keepers, usually omitting the estivation (afraid of the potential risks and willing to avoid the "boring" periods of their pets life). After two years of breeding attempts - I can say that the frogs form petshops were much more resistant to the changes of environment, more productive (ie. in means of a number of eggs, and rate of fertilization) than their counterparts of the same size/weight purchased from the Ã*amateour keepers. Also they response to the estivation and rain chamber was more straightforward... Of course a group of 50 or so frogs is too small to draw any far-fetched conclusions but... Frogs that were kind of used to the changing environmental conditions and the "dry periods" generally tend to be healthier and more productive in means of a number of eggs produced and mating activity - and in my opinion it is the only way to assess the potential benefits of the estivation...

Now that is a good observation. I have bought a few from Petshops and my largest (5.25 inch) female did experience a premature Aestivation when I purchased her. I do believe those frogs that are aestivated grow to their full potential in size. This could attribute to a more healthy frog.

Carlos, parasitic worms don't perish when the frog's gut is emptied. They will begin to eat the frog. This is why blood in the stool can be present when the frog is infected. Now this I believe is species specific though. Tapeworms being one of those devastating parasites.

[Lija]

great discussion everyone! it would be so great if anyone can do an actual scientific work on a subject.

explanation of more resistance of a frogs from a pet shops is because for them it is survival of the fittest, can you imagine what a hell road they need to go before then end up with someone caring, so many frogs will die, only survivors that are more resistant to everything will be sold. A frogs from a breeder are more lucky and these who would have dead going through pet stores, will be perfectly happy and healthy here. These frogs can be objectively be taken into consideration when comparing, as one group is already more resistant to begin with and will respond better to any changes in environment.

[Jakub Urbanski]

sure. anyway I think you underestimate the "keepers" sometimes it is much easier to survive in a forgotten tank, in midst of the petshop than "good care" or simple handling...

[GrifTheGreat]

sure. anyway I think you underestimate the "keepers" sometimes it is much easier to survive in a forgotten tank, in midst of the petshop than "good care" or simple handling...

Not necessarily. In my experience those forgotten in petshops most often die. If the substrate fully dries which is almost always does. Then the frog dies in dormancy. Especially if under substrate temps also are as hot and the ambient air. Disease and poor nutrition are also factors.

[Lija]

and the one out of probably 100 (?) that survives these conditions will more likely to respond better to any changes in his environment.

one way or another the way they were fed, the way there kept when they're tadpoles, babies, and so on as well as genetics will influence the way they will respond to anything in their life, it will affect their adult size, lifespan and other factors, so to get more objective results that part has to be constant and since it is not possible to achieve unless clone them, control groups have to be very big.

[Jakub Urbanski]

It is not that bad... They are given minimum care - stiil they are too expensive to let them die. On the other hand large fraction of the frogs aquired from amateur breeders seem to have suffered the MBD (deformed limbs, "bird beaks" and so on..) or are obese - overfeeding with rodents is a big problem, as it completely wrecks the liver...

[Mentat]

Well, i have to agree that a mistake in aestivation might be dangerous. Anyway - in an artificial environment we cannot control all parameters of the environment to the same extent. It is relatively easy with the humidity and temperature, but other factors such as atmospheric pressure are beyond our control. In Poland where I live, despite so called "moderate zone" we experience rapid changes of the pressure corrsponding to the weather changes. My observation is that if we do not correlate the outside weater pattern with the microclimate of the close environment, we expose the frogs to the stress. For example If we do not let them estivate in the season corresponding to the dry period, they tend to shed their skin more often... The stress make them more prone to the skin disease and infections, also they tend to die unexpectedly due to some kind of stress more frequently than the frogs subjected to estivation.
Physiology of all cold-blooded animals is highly dependent on weather conditions, and the estivation is a natural response to the changing environmental conditions of the dry period...

Hello Jakub! This is very interesting and poses some challenges to members that like myself live in areas with no natural dry hot season. Although could simulate temperature and humidity parameters; the atmospheric pressure and light cycle are pretty much out of my control. Would you be so kind to discuss how do you aestivate your frogs from the moment procedure starts to when it ends and frogs are eating? Please do include any tips you have learned from experience. No hurries, know we are all busy, so do it at your convenience, thank you !

[Jakub Urbanski]

Although could simulate temperature and humidity parameters; the atmospheric pressure and light cycle are pretty much out of my control. Would you be so kind to discuss how do you aestivate your frogs from the moment procedure starts to when it ends and frogs are eating? Please do include any tips you have learned from experience. No hurries, know we are all busy, so do it at your convenience, thank you ![/QUOTE]

Sorry for the late reply...

First of all we do aestivate only frogs that are perfectly fine and well fed.
We feed them 'ad libidum' before aestivation. Than we replace the regular substrate (coconut coir with the sphagnum moss) with the moist coconut coir (6-7 cm - just enough for the frog to dig in). The frogs are to spend quite a few weeks in it, so clean substrate is important. This step is followed by the mild raise of temperature (from some 25-26 to 28 deg. C). We stop spraying the substrate and let it dry - surface should be almost dry, than decrease temperature to some 20-22 deg. C. and let the frogs rest, checking substrate humidity once in a while, and spraying it if required. After 5-10 weeks (depending on needs and/or outside weather conditions and so on...), we gently raise the temperature and flood the frog with water to re-hydrate the substrate. And by flooding I mean pouring the water over the substrate. Frogs that we meant for breeding are instantly bathed and placed in a rain chamber (a bit shocking, but it seems to be the case in natural environment, the first thing the frogs do when the rainy season starts is to reproduce).

The best results (as of breeding success) are obtained when the end of aestivation matches the rapid weather change (sudden fall of the atmospheric pressure and storms)... In our climate it is late February/mid-March (end of winter) and mid-September (end of summer)...