UVA/UVB lights for tree frogs?

[Ben0918]

i have never gotten a straight answer for this but do you need it?

[carsona246]

I'm a relative newbie to frogs, but I'm fairly sure the answer is no, you do not need one for tree frogs. However I did purchase a heating lamp today, and was wondering if having uva/uvb will harm frogs. I realized the bulb I purchased emits uva.

[Lija]

i have never gotten a straight answer for this but do you need it?

Straight answer - yes you need it.

Not so straight answer would be - it depends on a frog species, some frogs require high percentage of UVB, some need less.

Which tree frog species are we talking about?

[Ben0918]

red eyes

[Lija]

I would use 2% UVB for red eyes.

[Heatheranne]

Yes, Lija is right. UVB light is not required for red eyed tree frogs if using a calcium supplement with vitamin D3, but the tropical 2.0 is the correct bulb. However, live plants will need UVB for growth. Provide plants that create shade in some areas so they may protect themselves from constant exposure, if they'd like.

Now, I have a 36" tall enclosure for mine so I actually use the 5.0 bulb for the plants, but I only plant the plants up to 24" so the frogs are not directly under the light, since they perch and sleep on the branches and leaves. Lights are off at bedtime when they are active and hopping and climbing about, so no worries about burns or too high of UV exposure by being too close to the bulbs. Works well and my plants love it .

Hope this answers your question . Let me know. Thanks!

[carsona246]

I hate to disagree with you guys, and maybe I'm totally lost on what UVB lighting actually is, but I'm fairly certain that plants do not require UVB light to grow. I've run a planted tank or two, and as long as the light is in the correct spectrum (around 65000) plants will grow just fine. Maybe those plant bulbs give off UVB radiation, and I'm totally unaware of it, but I'm fairly certain that if frogs have calcium supplement with vitamin D3 uva/uvb is not required for frogs or plants in a vivarium. I've heard that regular glass/acrylic actually blocks uva/b radiation, so even if plant bulbs did emit uvb radiation, it would not have reached the plants that I was growing, and mine always did well.
I did a bit of searching and there are people claiming uva/b radiation may potentially be harmful to frogs.
I personally have a UVB light in my tank now, and do not suspect that uvb lighting will be harmful at all, but I'm fairly certain it is not necessary.

[Lija]

People claim all sorts of things and can be arguing to death defending their opinion, that is why I go with scientific approach, whatever studies are done and researched conducted. If you are interested I will try to find some studies to post later, I can't use that tiny screen on iPhone lol

[Flying Dutchman]

I found an article that may be of some interest:

PLOS ONE: Ultraviolet Radiation Influences Perch Selection by a Neotropical Poison-Dart Frog

[carsona246]

Would love some scientific articles demonstrating the need for UVB light. However, I'm not sure if scientific articles are really necessary in this instance. If many people do not provide UVB light, and there are no negative signs of health in frogs kept without uvb light, then I would assume uvb light is not necessary. Not that I'm opposed to scientific articles, and if you have articles demonstrating evidence to the contrary I would be interested in seeing them.
Here's a quick thread I found where people claim to never use UVB lighting on their frogs. I think as long as D3 is provided there is no need for uva/b light.
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-lighting.html

Interesting article Dutchman, I'll have to read it properly when I get off work.

[Flying Dutchman]

It's not the most scientific research I ever read, but it gives a good idea about UVA and UVB light and frogs. I also think calcium and D3 are enough, but just to be sure I have installed a 5.0 UVB light. Since I installed the light, I see my frogs more "out in the open".

[Flying Dutchman]

You could also check this link:
Fire Belly Toad Zoo Med says most amphibians do not require special UVB lightning.
On the other hand, taken from the LLLreptiles website (caresheet of Fire Bellies):

These frogs do seem to benefit from good lighting, and it additionally encourages diurnal behavior. Avoid the use of any type of light that will produce significant amounts of heat, as fire-bellied toads do not telerate temperatures much above 80 degrees for extended periods of time. Instead, consider a fluorescent tube, preferably a low UV output bulb (Repti-Sun 5.0) placed above the entire length of the enclosure.

That's the reason I'm using a Repti-Sun 5.0

[carsona246]

Do you have glass or acrylic under you bulbs? I've read that glass/acrylic blocks uvb lighting completely, which is the reason most dart frog keepers don't even both with it, because they prop the lights up with glass/acrylic.

[poison]

There has been several cases of MBD in frogs. This is a good reason to use uvb bulbs (or d3 supplements ).

[carsona246]

I'm not arguing against the use of UVB bulbs, but I also don't think they are necessary so long as you provide the correct supplementation.
OP's question was "do you need it?" and I think the correct answer is no.

[Lija]

when it comes to frogs and to exotics in general there are so many unknowns, probably for every known fact there are 100 or more unknown, so in a lot of cases we need to go with experience, and base our decisions on what is known vs opinions.
yes high levels of any radiation, including UVB are harmful for anyone people including, there are tons of studies done in regards to it, now when ozone layer is getting thinner, the more and more radiation getting through atmosphere and more consequences we see, including developmental problems in all species, cancer, etc. however low levels are beneficial for growth and development and for many species are essential in order to support proper metabolic processes. It is like with drugs - too many of a good thing making it a bad thing.

Frogs differ greatly in their need for UVB, some species are adapted to live in no UVB environments ( pacmans, tomato, etc), while others need UVB to certain degree ( most tree frogs, darts) and some have to get higher levels of UVB (waxies). thus in captivity we need to provide environment as close to their natural one as possible.. as example waxies- they live high up, perching under the sun all day long, in captivity they have to have high percentage UVB bulbs- 5 for smaller tanks and can go as high as 10 for taller tanks and they will go as close as they possible can to the lamp, otherwise they will start being unhappy, dull in color and eventually die for no apparent reason. In comparison pacmans can live perfectly happy with absolutely no UVB. Tree frogs need small parentage of UVB, they live in a trees and this way they get certain percentage of UVB in a wild.

keep in mind vitamin D3 is fat soluble, in order for chemical form to be properly absorbed it has to be mixed with oil, powder form that we use in combination with Ca can't guarantee proper D3 absorption. MBD is very common among fast growing frogs in captivity, less common in smaller tree frogs. Treatment protocol calls for 4-6h per day low ray exposure for everybody, including pacman frogs who don't need UVB under normal circumstances, and excluding albinos due to their sensitivity to light.

as for plants... i think we all learned it in 4th grade.. that plants need sunlight for proper photosynthesis, sunlight meaning full spectrum one. i'm not going to go in depths there.

if you guys want some science here are a few articles that are available for free
UV-B Radiation
Amphibians and Ultraviolet Radiation
https://aark.portal.isis.org/researc...tamin%20d3.pdf

[carsona246]

UVB is not full spectrum light, I have never had to use UVB lighting to grow plants, and in fact doubt using just UVB lighting would be effective at all. You do not need UVB lighting to grow plants in your vivarium.
Again, not claiming UVB is harmful in small doses. But I also do not think it is necessary. Supplementing D3 clearly has some benefit/absorption because from my forum search it appears many people do not use UVB lighting. I think it is more than fair to say that too much UVB lighting is more harmful than too little. Clearly many types of frogs can be raised in an environment without UVB lighting and lead healthy lives.
While treatment for MBD may be exposure to uvb, that does not mean it is necessary in a healthy frog's environment, given they do not possess an unusually high need for UVB lighting. Again, not arguing that UVB in appropriate doses is not beneficial, but I don't think it's necessary with dietary supplementation(again basing this off the knowledge that many people do not use UVB lighting, and have healthy frogs).
I'll make sure to read through the articles when I have time, but a quick skim gives me the impression that the need for UVB lighting on amphibians is still being debated in the scientific community. One the articles stated that no formal studies have been done to assess the needs of UVB and D3 in amphibians.

[Heatheranne]

This is becoming a great post and debate . We learn so much from data sharing and research .

We have to remember that in nature amphibians can control the amount of UV light they are exposed to by moving their locations. In a vivarium or riparium, they are trapped with what we provide. For this reason we should also provide shade and shelter from any UV lighting, whether A or B. Medically, too much of a good thing can also be bad....burns, cancers, dehydration, electrolyte imbalances, alterations in kidney function due to dehyd/electrolyte imbalances, etc.

Here is some data on vivarium lighting provided by New England Herp. Just an explanation of the lights, their lumens and wattage and ranges of UVA and UVB lighting. (See below)

Most tropical plants like full spectrum lighting of around 6500-6700K. I use plants such as pothos, philodendrons and Chinese evergreens, which can tolerate less lighting, the higher humidities, and have broader leaves for tree frogs to perch on. I "feed" the plants with the frog poo/wastes by pushing the feces under the top layers of the ABG mix and coconut fiber substrate. I occasionally dump the frog water bowl water into the plant pots. There are springtails in the plant soil to help keep the wastes in balance and to keep away mold as the feces break down. Light, food/nitrogen, and water provide some of the essentials for the plants. Phosphorus is limited for the plants due to calcium exchange in the frogs. I provide shade for the frogs by limiting the height of the plant growth, and by using broader leafed plants. The combo works nicely. The lighting is only on one side of the tank. The plants extend to both sides of the tank. The light is somewhat blocked by the clear cellophane covering over the top of the tank. So, the amount of UV lighting able to pass through is not quantitative or qualitative with this set-up, unfortunately. It's a very simple set-up. Either way, it's enough to keep the plants growing well and the leaves grow large and nice and green , and the variegations in the evergreens are a lovely red/pink. Happy plants = happy frogs .

http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101

I like this article. Let me know what you think.

Also, a few of the available reptile/amphibian bulbs have UVB and UVA lighting. Most often there is a chart on the back of the bulb packaging showing the levels and how much UV is emitted by height levels away from the bulb.

[Heatheranne]

A good person to ask about plant lighting is Deranged Chipmunk. He is our plant guru .

[Flying Dutchman]

Do you have glass or acrylic under you bulbs? I've read that glass/acrylic blocks uvb lighting completely, which is the reason most dart frog keepers don't even both with it, because they prop the lights up with glass/acrylic.

If this question is for me, here's my answer:

I have an Exo Terra vivarium with the metal screen top. UVB will reach my frogs.