? stress

[Dalmond]

So I've got two WTF and had them for about two months. One of them became very sick. I have posted on here before and he seemed to get better but he isn't, it's like a roller coaster...up and down.

It began with one of them (gonzo) bloating and being very lethargic, his breathing (his chin going is what I think his breathing is) kept going very slow and deep then he took a deep breath and it got faster. He was awake during he day and disappeared at night. I gave him a honey bath on the advice from someone one here and he improved dramatically. He kept changing and I kept giving him the honey bath which worked brilliantly each time he became very active again and his breathing was fast and regular. Then he got worse and I was doing it too often so I took him to the vet. She thought it was an infection and gave some baytril which I tried. Give him orally for a week. I managed that twice but resorted to putting it on his back, the vet said this should be ok.

Then on day he was sprawled out on the floor of his viv in the day. I picked him up to see what was wrong and took him for a honey bath again. In the bath he had a "seizure" and went very stiff and stopped breathing. I thought he had died but after a short while he began breathing very slowly again. I booked an emergency vets appointment and put him into a honey bath again. When I got him to the vet he had done a poo with a piece of the substrate in it. The vet rang a specialist (there as a tropical vet available) and she was advised to book an X-ray for the day after and to give him a sub-cut calcium injection. When we got home he appeared very well again, and the next day the vet said an X-ray wouldn't be necessary but could still do it to see if there was anything that may have been the problem.

The X-ray showed gas in the intestines; apparently concurrent with a bowel irritation. The vet said that should be the end of the problem, to finish the baytril and we should be in the clear.

He was well for three days then he bloated again and his breathing was off, I rang the vet and she said that now the likely problem was a calcium deficiency. She advised to buy some calcium gut loading for the crickets and some zol-cal D liquid calcium to add to the bath incase the powder we were putting on them wasn't enough and in the mean time we could have another calcium injection. I said that at the moment he was ok but he may need it depending on the delivery time. The next day he had another seizure so I took him for the injection. He was in my honey solution on the way and he pooed again on route and when we got there he was very active and breathing regular and fast. The nurse gave the injection and we spoke about it may be a genetic gut problem (both times I've seen him poo he improved) he also went a beautiful bluey shade of green.

He appeared to be well again and ate well, I added the calcium liquid to the water and have watched him the last few days. Yesterday he burrowed un the moss and today he was awake again all day and hid as it went dark. Earlier on I heard him calling so I thought he was ok but as I was changing the water ect I saw he was bloated again and his breathing was off. I took him for a honey bath (with some calcium liquid aswell) again and he had another seizure. He was then immediately then was very active and his breathing was right, after five minutes the bloating went down but he had climbed out his bath and sat on the side after about a minute. He has eaten three locust I put in front of him and he has curled up (like WTF's do) and has gone to sleep. As I've written this he's sleeping but I can see his breathing is going slow and irregular again.

He in a large exo-terra tank with a mud brink substrate (we changed from bark after seeing it in his poo) and sphagnum moss, I've covered three sides. It has various artificial plants and vines in. There's a heat pad in one corner (were he burrowed) and a heat lamp on a timer I the day. I change the water daily and mist daily too with water thAts been left to allow the chlorine to evaporate. I spot clean the tank and deep clean monthly. The two of them in there, the other is fine. I'm currently feeding them daily with either crickets and recently locust, and since the possibly calcium problem I've dusted the crickets with KOMODO tree frog powder. The temp is between 75 and 80 in the day dropping to 65 - 70 at night. The tank in I pour bedroom (we have a spare but guest don't like having the frogs in there and we don't have anywhere with less traffic)

Does anyone have any idea of what may be wrong? Stress? An infection even though we've had the course of baytril? A calcium or nutrient deficiency? A neurological problem because of the seizures? A kidney problem because of he bloating? What can I do to make him well? I don't want him suffering, is euthanasia the only option left?

Im so worried, I don't like anyone or anything to suffer unnecessarily.

Please any ideas!?!?!?

[Dalmond]

I've just noticed as I put him back he is considerably smaller than the other frog we have, he was the bigger when we bought them. I don't think he's loosing weight but he doesn't appear to have grown unlike the other.

[Lija]

Sorry I'm on a run now, promise to be back as soon as I can, probably in a few hours. Unless someone else will chime in.

[Lija]

Couldn't just let it go had to read it through, I had a bad feeling....


So just read your post.... Oh My God!.......... First thing you need to change is a vet and find a different one, the one who knows what they are talking about and know amphibian medicine. Ask for experience the vet has before you book an app. Just saying there should be exotic animal vet association or something like that in UK, you can contact them for advice on a vet.

next.
- Stop doing what you are doing and using what you are using, no nothing, extra ca included. Run to the pet store and get a dechlorinator ASAP, use it for your water. For absolutely everything that you do. Any would do, I like prime, you can find it in any fish section of the store, but any water conditioner would do. Just to let it sit like you do for a few days is not enough.
- change the substrate to exo earth, take moss and whatever else you have out.
- place a frog, in fact both of them in separate water baths with electrolyte solution, pedyalite if you have that one, or any other you have in available, it should be pediatric electrolyte solution without any flavours and colouring. Do these baths for a few days in a row. Keep ratio 1 part of solution, 10 parts of treated water. See how it'll go and please post an updates, so we can advise accordingly.
Your frog is toxic out and getting impacted on a regular basis due to substrate and used water. Thus bloating and seizures. The other one is affected too, but perhaps he is more tolerant.

Are your frogs cb or WC?

[Mentat]

As I read your frog's sad story saw a couple things that drew my attention and Lija confirmed them. You need to follow her advice and also correct temperature problems.

The days of chlorine gassing out to atmosphere are long gone since the use of stable chloramines. Treat all water with Seachem Prime or similar product. That includes the bath water, the water to mix with electrolyte (at 80F), and the water to mix with shredded coco (Plantation Soil or EcoEarth). The substrate should be damp so it clumps on fist but does not drip water out.

Also, bring the enclosure temperature to 85F during day with up to a 10F drop at night. Humidity of 50-65% is fine and ensure enclosure is well ventilated. Good luck and hope frog gets better soon .

[Dalmond]

Thanks for both your replies, what you've said adds up.... Firstly the vets we go to is a standard vet but one has a exotics specialism. There is a exotic vet surgery but its an hours drive away. The reason the vet rang the specialist on the night was because it was an emergency appointment and the specialist from my normal surgery had gone home. I get a little confused as some information on here can be contradictory, its said not to handle them yet people advise taking out their main enclosure to another to watch them feed or for a bath (like suggested above), where is the safe ground so to speak? In terms of temperature I'm having a difficult time maintaining or even getting the temperature high enough. I've got the heat pad and a compact top but I'm having to use a fan heater to heat the room up in turn the viv. Any suggestions on another way to make it warmer for them. My substrate is "Lucky reptile Humus brick" (Lucky Reptile Humus Brick from Evolution Reptiles - that's a link for you to see) Is this the same as "Eco earth" or "exo earth"? Its just a fine soil like stuff that I add water to and it expands, and like advised above its damp to form clumps if squeezed but not dripping. Finally after searching all morning I've found something that I think is what you mean as paediatric electrolyte solution. Its a powder, and I would make it up as normal and then dilute it further as per the instructions above. Its called "dioralyte" (heres a link - Dioralyte Information Leaflets | Dioralyte, I've got the green natural one at the top of the page). Is this Ok? When should I bath them and in what, I normally use a bowl but they just climb straight out. Oh and I believe they're CB. Thanks again, I look forward to you replies. And sorry its a block of text, my laptop doesn't seem to want to put in paragraph breaks. :/ Oh and he seems well again this morning, and he was calling all night and woke me up twice!!

[Mentat]

Hi Dalmond ! The substrate you linked should be OK if just shredded coco fibers. The Dioralite is not a pediatric baby formula and that makes it a different product. Have no idea if it will work the same or cause harm to frog. What I use is available at Walmart as Parent's Choice Pediatric Electrolyte. It has the exact same formula of Pedialyte unflavored and comes in a 1 litter clear bottle. Can keep opened bottle in refrigerator. You mix it per previous instructions and can use a small critter keeper plastic box that fits your frog or a plastic bowl with a holed up lid. Depth of solution should reach the frogs chin.

[Dalmond]

Its a genrealised electrolyte replacement powder. It contains Potassium chloride, glucose, disodium hydrogen citrate, silicon dioxide and saccharin sodium. Im struggling to find a UK retailer for the products you've mentioned. I can ship them in from American but at nearly £100 bulk plus a long delivery time.

[Lija]

Not sure about substrate, it says it I shredded coco fibre, but coconut husk is also shredded, perhaps if you can post a pic of it already expanded we can tell.
Or just get that one Zoo Med Eco Earth - Evolution Reptiles that is what you need.

Diuralite is fine, just make sure it is without flavours and colours, I think the one that says natural should be the one. No need to ship from anywhere, Pedyalite is available everywhere in North America, that is why we recommend it, but really all that is water and bunch of electrolytes. In fact Gatorade is exactly same thing, of course not usable for frogs because of additives it has.
Carlos has covered how to do the bath.

[Dalmond]

Ok so they shall bathe tonight!!! Im going to clean out the tank, and use de-chlorinated water to make up my substrate. Ill keep you posted. And the thought of my frogs bathing in Gatorade makes me smile, brightened up my day. Thanks again guys

[Lija]

Firstly the vets we go to is a standard vet but one has a exotics specialism. There is a exotic vet surgery but its an hours drive away. The reason the vet rang the specialist on the night was because it was an emergency appointment and the specialist from my normal surgery had gone home.

i would doubt that specialist ability to treat frogs too, given the hell road you had to go over such trivial problems. I bet they charged you well too. Any vet should know that husbandry is a cause of 90% of all problems in exotics. And any vet who understand what he is doing in general would check mark everything husbandry related first before he offer to do anything at all.

temperature I'm having a difficult time maintaining or even getting the temperature high enough. I've got the heat pad and a compact top but I'm having to use a fan heater to heat the room up in turn the viv. Any suggestions on another way to make it warmer for them.

what heat lamp are you using? For your rank heating infrared 75w should work to maintain temps.

I get a little confused as some information on here can be contradictory, its said not to handle them yet people advise taking out their main enclosure to another to watch them feed or for a bath (like suggested above), where is the safe ground so to speak

As a general rule frogs are don't touch, just look pets, however some would tolerate mild handling, whites are one of them. Just make sure you wash your hands before handling and rinse them in treated water before you touch a frog, alternatively just use disposable gloves. Frogs are very sensitive to everything around them, and oils from your skin are no good for them.

[makrau03]

You need to contact Dr. Frye. He has helped many of the frogs that I have rescued with illnesses. His email is: Dr.frye.vetatmilan@gmail.com. Trust me, email him today. he will ship medication and anything else you need.

[makrau03]

By the way. Gatorade is a terrible idea, try Pedialyte, and only 1 to 10 ratio to de-chlorinated water.

[Bolisnide]

You need to contact Dr. Frye. He has helped many of the frogs that I have rescued with illnesses. His email is: Dr.frye.vetatmilan@gmail.com. Trust me, email him today. he will ship medication and anything else you need.

Dr. Frye can't ship meds outside the US. And pedialyte isn't available in the UK, that is why diurlyte was recommended.

[Dalmond]

So an update for you guys, the day after I bathed him in the electrolyte solution he became extremely ill during the day. He let out horrible screams and was seizing for a couple of minutes. He then went stiff and stopped breathing for five minutes. I thought he had died, again! Well we put him in some warm water and he slowly started to breath again, so we made an appointment at a specialist exotic vet over an hour away. We took him and the vet suspected he was septic due to his colouring and behaviour, possibly due to a parasitic infestation. He also suspected a calcium deficiency. He gave us some baytril to drop on his back daily, calcium injections to give him twice daily and another antibiotic to give by injection every other day. He seemed reasonable well again at the vet and very lively, however he was not right again the day after and had some more big seizures, almost continuously in the evening. So the day after I had to make the exceptionally hard decision to put him to sleep the day after, we decided that he wasn't getting any better and he appeared to be quite uncomfortable. He'd lost his smile, so although it was a very difficult decision to make we know now that he's happy and comfortable in froggy heaven. Were going to get Freddie tested for parasites, and the specialist is going to have Gonzo to do a post-mortem to see if he can find anything out to help other froggies in the future. Its odd not having him around, and Freddie appears to be missing him so we are going to get two more new babies in the next few days.

[Lija]

I'm so sorry for your loss, sometimes we have to make difficult decisions, so sorry you had to make one. Would you please update on necropsy results.

RIP Gonzo in a green froggy heaven, you will be missed.

[Heatheranne]

Dalmond,

I am sorry I missed your post. I just found it now. I'm sorry you and your frog had to go through all of this . I am glad he is no longer suffering.

Will you keep us posted on your other? Good luck!

[Mentat]

I'm very sorry for the frog's death Dalmond !

[Dalmond]

Here are our new froggies, Cookie in the foreground, Freddie looking down and our new little boy in the background (he hasn't got a name yet)