White's Tree Frog Sick?

[schwabem]

I'm having some trouble with my white's tree frog(s). Here's the background:

We got our first frog in Nov 2011 from PetSmart for our daughter's birthday. Technically "Slimy the Wonder Frog" was my daughter's pet but since she was just turning 6 my husband and I were the primary care takers and we watched how she cared for him and how often she could hold him (no more than once a week). For her 7th birthday (Nov 2012) she asked if she could have a second frog. Since we have the 18x18x24 ExoTerra tank we figured two frogs in it would be fine. Thus "Peek the Good Hiding Frog" came into our home from a local mom-n-pop pet store.

Things seemed to be going pretty well until a month ago. I noticed that Slimy's eyes (pupils) were not opening equally. One would be open all the way while the other was closed down all the way. Some times they'd be equal, other times they wouldn't. Two weeks ago when we got up to get everyone ready for school we saw Slimy laying in the bottom of the tank very dead. I was surprised because the night before he was very active and was hunting crickets all over the terrarium. We took him out right away and buried him in the back yard near our other friends who've crossed the Rainbow Bridge.

Now Peek seems to be off. Her eyes are equally dilated, but I haven't noticed them opening up for a few days, even in the evenings when she's hunting they're closed down tight. I've taken her out of the tank and into a large tupperware box for the time being. I don't know if the problem was in the tank or not, but I took it outside and have totally cleared out the plants, dumped the substrate, scrubbed the log, and have washed the whole thing out. I'm going today to get some fresh substrate in case there was something growing in there that was making them sick.

I noticed that Peek has some little blue marks on her nose that I haven't noticed before. They look like scratches? Also there's a darker line in the middle of her eyes, like she's trying to open them but they're just stuck closed.

Is there anything I should do other than resetting the tank?

Do they need calcium/vitamin supplements? I've heard mixed things so have just been feeding gut loaded crickets with no additional supplements.
Do they need a UV light bulb? Again, some places say that frogs need them while others say that the White's are fine with a regular CFL bulb (which is what I have).

I know that life and death happens but if Peek dies too, especially this close to the demise of Slimy, I'm going to have a very devastated frog loving 7 year old on my hands and I'd like to avoid that if at all possible.


Here's Peek as of this morning, blue scratches(?) on her snout and eyes that look like they want to open but aren't.

[schwabem]

Aww crud. Just checked on her again and her eyes are all wonky. This is the same thing that happened to the other frog, one pupil dilated the other shut down tight.

Any ideas guys?

photo taken at 5pm Oct 15

[Bolisnide]

This looks neurological, but I could be wrong.
Or, maybe exposure to some sort of chemical or medication. Not sure why both frogs would be suffering from the same thing, which is why I think it could be exposure to checmical or medications.
I would seek a vet;s professional opinion right away.

To answer your questions:
In regard to the tank, what did you clean it with?
The nose scratches are from the frog bumping into the screen at the top of the tank or maybe the orniments, possible because of a neurological issue.
Big giant yes on supplementing with a calcium with D3 and multi vitamin.!!!
There is no debate as far as the importance. I don't know if this could have caused the eye problem. Start right away.

No more handling by your kiddo, sorry. This causes stress, even if only once per week. Any possibility of your child having some residue of something on her hands?
Right now you should limit stress as much as possible. Cover 3 sides of the tank with a towel or paper. Place in a quiet room.

Call a vet...

And BTW, I'm so sorry for your loss of the first frog
Good luck

EDIT: In regard to the UVA/UVB lighting, that's really only for the plants. I believe white's don't *need* it. I have the full spectrum lighting though, just in case, because like you said, it does seem some say it's necessary, some don't. I 'd rather be safe and not sorry later..

[schwabem]

Neurological issues is what I found thorough extensive Googleing when Slimy started to get sick. Now with the same symptoms in a second animal I've just got no idea what's going on.


The Tank:
I dumped all the dirt outside and scrubbed it down inside and out with tap water from the hose and a clean rag. I left it to sit outside in the sun all day to dry and kill anything off via UV rays.
I took the plants all out and washed all the dirt off the roots. Then I made up a 1:10 bleach water mix and soaked the plants for 20 minutes and then rinsed them off thoroughly.
I replaced the old substrate (composted sphagnum moss) with coconut fiber from the pet store and covered it with sphagnum "frog" moss, also from the pet store.
I've just tossed the log. I don't think it was the problem, it was in there for 4 months before I noticed any trouble, but it was a "wild" log (scrubbed, boiled, and baked prior to going into the tank) but that was the most recent big change that had been made so I'm going to keep it out in case that's the fiend here.


My daughter has not been messing with the frogs (other than feeding/clean water) for quite a while, well before they started looking sick. She still enjoys caring for and watching them but the novelty of having them around and wanting to hold them has waned. She was very careful when she did handle them, rinsing her hands with water before and washing with soap after they were put away.

I did get the calcium/vit. D supplement and gave it to the frog right away.

For now, I'm keeping Peek in the large tuperware, paper towel on the bottom (changed daily) and fresh water available. My daughter asked for a new frog when Slimy died and if they had some sort of disease/infection/contagious illness I don't want to put Peek back into the now clean tank to infect an incoming healthy frog. We've done our best to prepare our daughter for Peek dieing too. We this is the same thing that happened to Slimy before he died. We're doing what we can to try to fix it but we're not really sure what the problem is.

We're on a pretty tight budget so we'll have to wait until next week when payday comes again so we can adjust some expenses to get to the vet. We've already used the current pay check on silly things like the mortgage and groceries.

[Lija]

I'm trying to get a picture here and first question that in on my mind - what kind of water you are using?
Take the top layer of moss out, and leave plain exo earth that you have underneath.

So sorry that it is sick, it must be so hard for your daughter.

Please answer to all those questions, you covered some already, but there are still some left.

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”
The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)


by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[Mentat]

Sorry for Slimy's death and Peek troubles . Please do answer Lija's posted questions above, so we can try and figure out what is wrong. Thank you !

[Bolisnide]

Neurological issues is what I found thorough extensive Googleing when Slimy started to get sick. Now with the same symptoms in a second animal I've just got no idea what's going on.


The Tank:
I dumped all the dirt outside and scrubbed it down inside and out with tap water from the hose and a clean rag. I left it to sit outside in the sun all day to dry and kill anything off via UV rays.
I took the plants all out and washed all the dirt off the roots. Then I made up a 1:10 bleach water mix and soaked the plants for 20 minutes and then rinsed them off thoroughly.
I replaced the old substrate (composted sphagnum moss) with coconut fiber from the pet store and covered it with sphagnum "frog" moss, also from the pet store.
I've just tossed the log. I don't think it was the problem, it was in there for 4 months before I noticed any trouble, but it was a "wild" log (scrubbed, boiled, and baked prior to going into the tank) but that was the most recent big change that had been made so I'm going to keep it out in case that's the fiend here.


My daughter has not been messing with the frogs (other than feeding/clean water) for quite a while, well before they started looking sick. She still enjoys caring for and watching them but the novelty of having them around and wanting to hold them has waned. She was very careful when she did handle them, rinsing her hands with water before and washing with soap after they were put away.

I did get the calcium/vit. D supplement and gave it to the frog right away.

For now, I'm keeping Peek in the large tuperware, paper towel on the bottom (changed daily) and fresh water available. My daughter asked for a new frog when Slimy died and if they had some sort of disease/infection/contagious illness I don't want to put Peek back into the now clean tank to infect an incoming healthy frog. We've done our best to prepare our daughter for Peek dieing too. We this is the same thing that happened to Slimy before he died. We're doing what we can to try to fix it but we're not really sure what the problem is.

We're on a pretty tight budget so we'll have to wait until next week when payday comes again so we can adjust some expenses to get to the vet. We've already used the current pay check on silly things like the mortgage and groceries.

Hi again,
I'm curious about the water as well.
And I'm so sorry if I came across not very sensitive to your situation. I have a 6 year old son, a mortgage, and groceries also. And I've owned white's for a long time. So I do feel a lot of sympathy for you.
Lija's advice, as always, is right on.
I'll look forward to your answers and see if anything else pops out at me.
Best,
Lindsey

[schwabem]

I didn't think anyone was being insensitive, but I've been blasted in the past online for not immediately rushing my pets (our dog in that case) to the vet at the slightest hint of something wrong. Makes me feel like I have to explain *why* things get delayed. I love my pets, but my human family have to take priority.

Ok, on to answering questions.
(edited once to clarify a couple things and add a few photos)

1. Size of enclosure
ExoTerra 18x18x24 "rainforest" edition

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
Originally 2, now 1 Whites Tree Frog(s) both approx 3.5" long, the now dead one was slightly smaller though not by much.

Photo of them both from April of this year, Slimy on the left Peek on the right:



3. Humidity
We struggled with humidity, won't lie. The lights (regular CFL's in a "daylight" spectrum) would dry it out badly so we'd start the day at 70% and it would go down from there. We keep the hydrometer about 3" from the top screen so IDK if that was affecting the readings or not.

4. Temperature
80F day 75F night

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
Gerber "Pure" water for both misting and soaking: Distilled water with added minerals: magnesium sulfate, potassium bicarbonate, calcium chloride

6. Materials used for substrate
Then, sphagnum moss from the Lowes garden center soil amendment area. NOW: Blue Iguana Coco Soft

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
Live plants, all of which had been in the tank the whole time, nearly two years with no trouble with the first frog and 10 months with the second. A wild found drift wood log (from a river) that I scrubbed, boiled, and then baked prior to putting it into the enclosure. I've left that out now, though I don't think it caused the problems since I put it in in May and we didn't have any trouble until the end of September.

- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
Crickets and occasionally meal worms for Slimy when he wasn't moving fast enough to get to the crickets before Peek did.

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
I was not doing this. I have gotten calcium/vit D powder now for Peek and she's had 4 calcium coated crickets, 2 yesterday and 2 today.

10. Lighting
2 CFL bulbs on a 12 hour timer 6am - 6pm

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
Always a small ZooMed sticky mat heater on the side of the glass in the back left corner and the CFL lights. In the winter we also have a spot heat light (we try to keep our actual home temp similar to the outdoors so it's significantly warmer in the summer than it is in the winter)

12. When is the last time he/she ate
Peek has still been eating regularly, perks right up when she senses a cricket near her and is quick to grab them. She's eaten today and yesterday.

13. Have you found poop lately
There was poop yesterday, though it was somewhat smaller than usual. I'll keep an eye out for the next one to see if it's more average.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
See below

15. How old is the frog
Not sure, Peek was fairly large when we bought her from a local mom-n-pop pet store I'd say roughly 3" and we've had her for 11 months now.
Same thing with Slimy, purchased from PetSmart at around 2.5" and we had him for just under 2 years when he died

16. How long have you owned him/her
see above

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
I would assume captive breed, but I really have no idea

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
Only crickets

19. How often the frog is handled
usually 1x per month for the last year. For a while we were taking Slimy out 2-3x a week because he was moving too slowly to catch the crickets before Peek would get to them.

Case in point: he was in a separate feeding area (rubermaid box) with 3 crickets and this happened. Slimy never was very fast, this cricked climbed -not jumped- up on top of him.


20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
High traffic area. Our house is small and the living room is the only spot outside of the Girls' room, and we didn't want it out of sight back there where we (my husband and I) couldn't control how much access was happening.

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
the soaking dish was changed daily and once a week the glass (inside and out) was cleaned with the misting bottle and a squeegee. Occasionally a rag when bits of molted skin were really stuck to the glass.


Here's the tank around mid-may when I added the log, prior to the log I had the thicker fake vine that came with the ExoTerra rainforest kit with the vine wrapped around it going in pretty much the same place. Both Slimy (the one you can see easily) and Peek (harder to see because of the light, just above Slimy on the log) are in this photo. Ignore the "after" this is pulled from my facebook just after I put the log in.




Here's what I've got going on right now. The water dish will go in the middle but for now it's in the "sick box" with Peek. I'm keeping Peek out of the viv for the time being, until she either gets better or ... not. We had already agreed to get a new frog to take Slimy's place for our daughters next birthday (mid Nov) and if whatever's going on is contagious (which it seems it is) I don't want to spread it into the now clean re-set viv.

I will gladly take advice for how to set this up better. I've taken my design ideas from internet pictures and our most recent trip through the Herp house at the zoo.

[Lija]

We don't judge, unless someone had no respect for live creature.
we're here to help.
My kid just killed iPad, needs to charge, hate to use phone or forum so will be back a bit later for your questions.
i just wanted to tell you that not always vet can help and some vets are .... As well the visit itself may cause unneeded stress, so not always I suggest to go to the vet. So let's go through options can be done at home.

[Mentat]

Hi Emma and thanks for answering questions. OK, that Gerber water might be great for pre 6 month infants; but appears it's not good for frogs. Recommend use tap treated with Seachem Prime (at aquarium section of pet shops) for all water needs. If your tap is hard water and stains glass, can use distilled for spraying; but avoid frog. If the mineral content of that baby water is too low or different from frog's needs it could affect how it's body functions (physiology).

Recommend replace substrate with new batch and mix it with dechlorinated tap. Have not use that brand but if same as Plantation Soil or EcoEarth should be fine. Mix it so it becomes slightly damp and clumps on fist but does not drip water out.

Good that you are using supplements now. Lack of CA can lead to Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD) and neurological issues due to mineral ion imbalance. Repashy and Rep-Cal products are highly rated. Here is some sample dusting schedules you can use: http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html .

Need to bring the day temperature to 85F with a drop of up to 10F for night. Ventilation is important so keep vents open. Don't worry if humidity drops a bit and frog should handle OK between 50-65. Keeping frogs below their temperature requirements long term can cause kidney and lymph heart damage.

Hope this helps a bit and please let us know how frog respond to changes, good luck !

[schwabem]

Thanks for all your advice guys, and for the calcium schedule! We'll be sure to use that in the future.

Unfortunately Peek is missing, presumed dead. Somewhere between 11:30pm last night and 6:30am this morning she got out of the "sick box" that I had her in. The lid was not latched (for air) but it wasn't off the box, nor was it really disturbed from where I'd left it. There was just a lone poop in the bottom of the box but no frog. We searched for an hour but to no avail and had to leave for school. I have no idea where she's at other than living up to her full name "Peek the Good Hiding Frog."

We will get another frog in 6 weeks or so as promised for our daughters birthday. In the mean time we'll keep the terrarium up and running so it's all ready for it's new inhabitant.

Thank you all again for taking the time to answer my questions and for giving me advice. Hopefully things will go better this time now that we're not quite so new to amphibians as we were when we started two years ago.

[schwabem]

Well, I'll be. The Prodigal Frog has returned! Bust out the fattened calf, or, you know, eggs and bacon since it's breakfast time.

After we spent much of yesterday searching for the missing Peek to no avail she showed up this morning on the shelf above the terrarium where we keep the box of crickets trying her hardest to get to one.

She was a little dusty and had some dog hair stuck to her feet but otherwise seems to be in great condition. Her eyes have even gone back to normal!

I have no idea where she was at but I'm very glad she showed up this morning.

[deranged chipmunk]

So happy to hear you found your little froggie! I once had a white's escape, only to find him 2 months later! Tough little buggers those white's are!