cutting nightcrawlers

[Bolisnide]

Hi!
My white's treefrogs *love, love* nightcrawlers. They're too big to feed without cutting into at least quarters. The worms often squirm and bleed !
I hate this every time I do it, and was wondering if anyone knew if night crawlers feel pain? It breaks my heart, but my frogs really go for them.... which is the only reason I continue to feed nightcrawlers. At least with crickets it's a quick death.
Thanks!

[Bolisnide]

Google has answers, duh!
Found many interesting articles and studies on this subject; I guess I'm not the only one who has wondered if worms feel pain!
This I found the most interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_invertebrates

[Mentat]

Hum... hard question Lady of the Lake! Earthworms feel pain as a local negative stimuli to retreat from a danger; not as a suffering like humans do. That is because earthworm brains don't have the higher development required for processing painful stimuli.

Lucky for me, my frogs take them whole. I do have decapitated pinced worms in the past and never liked it. Recommend an extremely sharp blade and swiftness to get it over as promptly as possible .

[Bolisnide]

Hum... hard question Lady of the Lake! Earthworms feel pain as a local negative stimuli to retreat from a danger; not as a suffering like humans do. That is because earthworm brains don't have the higher development required for processing painful stimuli.

Lucky for me, my frogs take them whole. I do have decapitated pinced worms in the past and never liked it. Recommend an extremely sharp blade and swiftness to get it over as promptly as possible .

Hi Carlos,
Hope you're well!
This is pretty much what I gathered from surfing around online.
Right, sharp scissors and move quickly... poor things

[MatthewM1]

A nice sharp paring knife works well too, use tongs to gently pin down the worm and a quick straight slice, cleaner cut than scissors ime

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[Cap10Squirty]

Today I saw a half eaten B. dubia roach (upper body only) lying on its back cleaning its antennae....... Anyway, a long the same lines, I've wondered how long a whole worm or superworm (or anything) will live inside a larger frog that manages to swallow its prey whole. I imagine it isn't too long before stomach acid does its job.

[MatthewM1]

I've found and adult male dubia with his entire bottom half eaten by my Forest scorpions, walking around, drinking from the water dish, acted completely normal untill one of them finished him off the next night

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[Mentat]

I've found and adult male dubia with his entire bottom half eaten by my Forest scorpions, walking around, drinking from the water dish, acted completely normal untill one of them finished him off the next night

Roaches can survive incredible damage and environmental conditions. Throw at them an insecticide and in few generations they will laugh at you and your exterminating efforts !

[Hypnotic]

I believe these animals can feel pain, they just don't respond to it the same way other animals would. If it bothers you there are a few things you can do... Feed smaller worms for example. Personally, I'm not botherd by it, don't get me wrong, I don't like it, but I realise this is something I have to do to feed my frogs. My cornuta won't eat locusts with legs, so I have to remove them for him.
Dubias are extremely hardy, I recently found a half dead one and tossed it in my bin, a week later when emptying my bin, I saw it was clenched to the top of the can, so I actually set him free.

[UncleChester]

It breaks my heart, but my frogs really go for them.... which is the only reason I continue to feed nightcrawlers....

They are also very nutritious and a better staple than crickets.

I don't know how small the pieces are relative to your frogs but for what it's worth earthworms are a food item that I ignore the 'space between the frogs eyes' rule. I've had no issues feeding worms that are about as long or even longer then the treefrog eating it (SVL). They're soft and easy to digest so impaction from large hard bits is not an issue, they are incapable of harming your frog, and my worm loving Hyla cinerea has absolutely no issues stuffing them down her throat faster than you can even blink.

You could also look into culturing your own earthworms, but most species take long enough to breed that by the time you get a young crop your whites will probably be big enough to take down pretty large worms (iirc your White's were young'uns?). Breeding earthworms might be worth looking into at any rate.

[Bolisnide]

They are also very nutritious and a better staple than crickets.

I don't know how small the pieces are relative to your frogs but for what it's worth earthworms are a food item that I ignore the 'space between the frogs eyes' rule. I've had no issues feeding worms that are about as long or even longer then the treefrog eating it (SVL). They're soft and easy to digest so impaction from large hard bits is not an issue, they are incapable of harming your frog, and my worm loving Hyla cinerea has absolutely no issues stuffing them down her throat faster than you can even blink.

You could also look into culturing your own earthworms, but most species take long enough to breed that by the time you get a young crop your whites will probably be big enough to take down pretty large worms (iirc your White's were young'uns?). Breeding earthworms might be worth looking into at any rate.

I have one white's, about 2.25" s to v, the other is 3". They are now tank mates as of a couple weeks ago
Anyway, I always have strictly followed the feeder size rule of no bigger than the distance between the eyes. I'll try going a bit bigger, maybe cutting the worm in half, and see how that goes. It makes sense that they can be a bit bigger.


I have one more question about feeding night crawlers:
I keep the styro-foam container in the fridge, and when I take out a worm I wash it in warm (treated) water to rinse and warm it up a bit. Is this necessary? I always have fed nice clean and warm worms... But recently I saw a youtube video (I know not a good place for advice, but sometimes I poke around at frog videos), and saw someone feed a worm right out of the container and covered with soil. It also appeared he had just taken the container out of the fridge.
Is feeding a cold worm not a good idea? does it matter? what about the soil from the container?
The wahsing of the worms is a step I'd prefer to not take if it's unnecessary.

cheers!

[UncleChester]

Provided you know the soil is ok to eat and the frog can pass it easily (no chemicals, no large impaction causing hard bits), I wouldn't worry about a wash. I just give the worms a gentle wipe with my fingers before feeding to get the bulk of it off.

[Bolisnide]

thanks, good to know