Sick Whites Dumpy Tree Frog, any hope?

[smashley]

We've had our whites dumpy tree frog for about 9 months, he did really well for about 6 months... alert and jumpy, soaked in water at night, aggressive eater, and he grew quite quickly at first. Over the last several months he has not been behaving normally and I am worried he is very sick now.
Here are his symptoms: he has completely stopped growing even though he is still quite small; he doesn't eat much at all, this has gradually gotten worse, now we give him 10 medium crickets from the petstore and it takes him about a week to eat them all, and a few of the crickets have died by then so he doesn't really eat all the crickets we give him; he is always on the ground now and he doesn't really jump, just sort of walks but lately he has been staying in one place for a few days at a time; he barely reacts if we reach in his tank and touch or nudge him but he does walk around until you leave him alone; he also never goes in his water pool anymore, it is quite humid he doesn't look dehydrated, but he used to take a swim nearly every night. He usually goes after a cricket or two right when we feed him, but tonight he really showed no interest even with crickets resting on him. He is bright green still, even when he acted normal he rarely changed color. Aside from being small and maybe a little skinny he looks fine, no injuries or anything. There have never been any major changed to his habitat, we just moved from Colorado to Oregon but he seemed to be getting sick before we moved.

Any ideas what is wrong with him or what I can do to help him?

[BlueKiwiOca]

Could you please answer these http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...enclosure.html questions so we can help you out? thanks!

[smashley]

I dont think there are any problems in his enclosure, but I'm not an experienced frog owner so I'll describe it. It has a coconut/bark bottom with rock and a log leaned up the side, he has a water dish, but no running water (the last frog my boyfriend kept had running water in a waterfall with a pump and filter not sure if that makes a differance). We spray him with room temp tap water at least once a day, usually more. It stays very humid in his enclosure, although we wonder if it was too dry in colorado. He has live plants in his enclosure, orchids a couple of ferns and two other common tropical plants. He has a uv compact lamp above his tank and a small heater stuck to the back of it.

Last night he didn't move at all, even with fresh crickets in his enclosure. My boyfriend picked him up this morning he was fairly squirmy so I guess he still has some energy.

[smashley]

Opps just realized you sent a link with more questions, here are more answers:

He lives in a 10 gal glass aquarium w screen top
Just one white's dumpy tree frog in the enclosure, no other animals
Don't have sensors for humidity and temp, but stays visibly humid and the house stays above 65 degrees and he has a little heater stuck to the back of his tank
We use tap water for his water dish and to spray him, I mentioned before we just moved but I he was sick before the move
Substrate is coconut core, as suggested by petstore associate, we found that the fibers would get caught in his mouth so we added a layer of small bark. Natural set up, live plants were quarantined and watered a few times to be sure there wasnt any fertilizer on them, natural rock and wood sat out in the house for a while and were washed before they were added to his home.
We feed him 10 medium crickets from the pet store about every week although it has been less often lately bc it takes him about a week to eat what
We havent found poop in quite a while (over a month) but in his natural enclosure we might not see it?
We don't handle him much and he is in a low traffic area in the living room, just my boyfriend and me in the house

[kueluck]

Amphibian Care >> White's Tree Frog (Litoria caerulea) Care MY guess is the tap water or he's ingested a piece of bark. Change your water to clean rain water or treat it w/conditioner safe for amphibians.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Your White's is suffering from TOS "Toxic Out Syndrome" because of chloramines in tap water. Frog stopped going to water dish because it's poisoning it. You need to get a dechlorinator like Seachem's Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize and use it to treat his water now. Once you treat water fill dish to frogs chin and place it there so it can detox. Also, change water daily even if clean.

The enclosure you have does not work well for tree frogs where a vertical disposition with more height than floor space is preferred. Also, White's are large frogs and the minimum height recommended is 24 inches. IRT temperature Whites need 85F daytime with around a 10F drop at night. Ventilation is more important that humidity and they can handle 65-70%. Need to get gauges in there so you can monitor properly and a dual digital model is the way to go.

Crickets should not be thrown into enclosure until all are eaten. They need to be fed or "gut loaded" with carrots, oats, lettuce, and veggie fish flakes for 24-48 hours and then fed to frog. All uneaten crickets should be removed from cage early the next day as they will loose their nutritious value and even could pester and bite frog causing more stress or even an infection. Crickets should be sized same as distance between frogs eyes and dusted with CA/D3 2X and vitamins 1X weekly on different days with skip day in between.

That substrate should be replaced with damp shredded coco mixed with dechlorinated water, damp unprinted paper towels or even damp clean rags. If your frog accidentally ingests a piece of bark while catching a cricket, it could get impacted and get sick or die. Also, the substrate was sprayed with chloramines in tap so it has to go now as part of frog's detox.

Take care of water and food issues now and then start planing on new enclosure soon. Hope we are on time to turn health issues around and good luck !

[smashley]

Thanks for the advice, I had no idea the tap water would be harmful. Will fix that immediately. We also have a larger tank but have been waiting for him to get better to set it up, but I will do that today. I'm off to the pet store for water conditioner and food supplements. I'll update if things get better or worse.

Thanks again

[smashley]

Frog seems to be doing a little better. Hes been in a temporary enclosure with clean coco and water for a couple of days. Now he is much more active!
We gave him a few crickets yesterday and he immediately went after them! We were so relieved to see that! However, he hasn't been able to catch anything. We took the crickets out after a few hours and we are trying again today (so far its been the same thing, hunting but no kill). It sort of looks like he is jumping for the crickets but not opening his mouth. Should I be concerned about this? Or just give him more time? I'm worried that he was being poisoned for so long that now he might be blind or brain damaged or something. Anyone ever heard of a frog that can't/won't open its mouth?

He is definitely improving so hopefully he will continue to do so

[Mentat]

Glad frog is doing better for you! Well, step two is getting it to eat and nothing better than to keep trying. Not sure why it won't open it's mouth; but doubt it's brain damage.

Could try and perk up a bit before feeding. To do that, need to get some unflavored Pedialyte or similar baby electrolyte. Make a solution with 10% Pedialyte and 90% dechlorinated 80F water after frog wakes up. Add enough solution in a holding container (small critter keeper or bowl) so it will get to frogs chin depth. Gently transfer frog to solution and let soak for 20 minutes. Afterwards move frog back to it's cage, place in it's water bath, and offer some crickets then.

Once it starts eating for a couple days can start dusting it's food again. Good luck !

[smashley]

Thanks so much! We will try the electrolyte bath today!

[kueluck]

If you can get some wax worms or butter worms try to tong feed him them, or put then in a bowl with him to see if he'll go for that. Gently rub the worm on the lip line and see if he'll take it. Mine can't resist a nice fat wax or butter worm.

[BlueKiwiOca]

You can also try pulling the back legs off the crickets to make them easier to catch.

[smashley]

gave him the electrolyte bath, then put him in water and offered crickets, we pulled the legs off of some of the crickets earlier. He definitely has plenty of energy, hunting the crickets very aggressively, but he just isn't opening his mouth... he ends up practically head butting them or landing on them, its hard to watch. Tried feeding him with tweezers too, but he didn't seem to care for that. Going to leave a few in his enclosure with him all night, hopefully he will get something to eat...

[smashley]

Was hunting aggressively last night when we went to bed, but this morning all the crickets are still alive He seems to really want them, he jumps for the crickets but he just isn't opening his mouth, his aim seems good, he ends up landing with his head or front feet right on the crickets. I'm really worried about him using so much energy and not getting any food.

[smashley]

My boyfriend is feeling really sorry for Frog and we are thinking about Euthanasia... I saw the post about the humane ways to do it. Do you all think it's too soon? We are just starting to believe he isn't capable of eating, he wants to so bad but just cant seem to function his mouth or something.

[Mentat]

Your frog is active and is not a candidate for death. Can you please post a pic to see how skinny it is? Thank you !

[smashley]

okay! Here are a couple of shots from just now. Do you know how long they can survive without eating?
He has been sort of puffed up for a day or so now, he was pretty bony looking a couple days ago (and he hasn't eaten since then). He is probably 1.5-2 inches long, nose to butt. How often can I put him in a 10% pedialyte/90% dechlorinated water bath? I was advised to leave him in for about 20 minutes, can I do this daily while he is recovering?

[BlueKiwiOca]

Even if he has a feeding response, and wants to catch the food, perhaps force-feeding is a good option here. He does look quite skinny. Leave it another day or so and continue with the daily Pedialyte baths, pulling the legs off crickets etc. If he still can't catch them, I or someone else can help walk you through force-feeding him. I found when my frog was sick he'd kind of gotten out of practice when it came to catching food... he'd lunge for it but miss. Maybe he just needs to get his rhythm back so to speak

[flybyferns]

okay! Here are a couple of shots from just now. Do you know how long they can survive without eating?
He has been sort of puffed up for a day or so now, he was pretty bony looking a couple days ago (and he hasn't eaten since then). He is probably 1.5-2 inches long, nose to butt. How often can I put him in a 10% pedialyte/90% dechlorinated water bath? I was advised to leave him in for about 20 minutes, can I do this daily while he is recovering?

I'm so sorry about your frog He absolutely CAN be saved

I believe he is ill and needs medication asap
( if there a poop still around -save it -- so the vet can do a fecal study )

I wish I could come by to help you. This really has nothing to do with NOT eating . It's the other way around . He is not eating because he is sick.

If it has been more than 5 days. You could feed him 2 squished , dusted cricks without legs.
( be sure the food is NOT liquid ! ) Be very careful... his skin is very fragile right now. Wrap him in dampened paper towels/use powerless gloves / dampen your hands - with or w/out gloves. Best if you have 2 people for this. Use a soft flexible bowl scraper to get his lips open and push the food in. Balance the food on the end of the spatula while you are getting his mouth open. Return him to the glass immediate. Protect him from a startled jump in response to being handled. Then leave him be.. and don't handle him unless absolutely necessary

You can continue the soaks. Rather thank pick him up and place him into the soaking dish......dribble the water on to his back ( not his face) for 15 mins -- while he is sleeping

The vet may have a different solution for soaking?
In the meantime ----the pedi solution should be made with distilled water----( 1:10) ( one part pedi: 10 parts distilled water)

The soaking dish water must be de-chorinated with a de-chlorinator safe for amphibians
ie Aquqtize (exo-terra - product)

Find a new very shallow water dish ( glass if possible ) - one that can be boiled ie shallow plant or cup saucer. He looks too weak to get into that dish. Boil it before you place it into the hospital tank. Make yourself extra soaking dish water. If he is not soaking on his own dribble water on his back during the day while he is sleeping. Clean the soaking dish daily under HOT tap water.

Review the care sheet:
Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

You need to get him out of his enclosure and into a sterilized hospital tank ( cheap 5 gallon glass tank ) with a lid to keep him safe.
**** maintain the proper temps in the tank ......... 85 degrees during the day !!!!!! This is imperative !
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html

Dampen the paper towel in the hospital tank w/ de-chlorinated water and change daily - -when he is sleeping
Do everything possible .........not disturb him.

Drape the tank with a towel- he will feel safer.

His current enclosure needs to be broken down and sterilized before he goes back in it. Remove ALL substrate and toss it. What ever cannot be boiled or baked needs to be thrown away.

If you do not have a herp vet:
Dr Frye's contact:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

You can e-mail Dr Frye today and you will have an answer today
In your email include the photos you posted here- especially 1st photo ,an approximate measurement of the frog snout to vent, a brief description of the frog's recent care, and how long you have had him.
Medications can be purchased via credit card and mailed to you.

Please , keep us posted !
Lynn

[smashley]

Thank you Lynn! So much great info! I am going to make some changes in his hospital enclosure and e-mail dr. frye before work this morning. I do have a poop on a plant that I took out of his original enclosure but I don't have a herp vet nearby. I think we will try to feed him tonight and hopefully we will have heard from dr. frye by then as well.
Thanks again to everyone, all of the advice has been so helpful.