New Froglet Not eating-owned for less than 24 hrs-1 inch svl

[GrifTheGreat]

The terrarium is a critter keeper, basically is small. I could get a smaller one, but anyways, I will get a picture once I will get to my home.



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Medium critter keepers are best heated with a Zoo Med Mini UTH made for Hermit Crab enclosures. They are safe for plastic and help maintain the heat within the keeper.

[CJ PELCHER]

This is not correct CJ. Horned frogs need INSANE amounts of calcium to support their growth. As a matter of fact they need far more calcium than other frogs within the hobby. This is crutial for them to develope proper bone growth and dencity. Gutloading is not enough and just offering calcium rich feeders is not enough. They will still need calcium supplements. Vitamins while important are needed less than the calcium.

Earthworms are high in protein and calcium, but if not supplemented with calcium the frog still has a greater chance of developing MBD, Hypocalcemia, or teteny. A diverse diet is always jmportant though.

My appologies. I didnt not see HORNED frog in the thread. I thought i was in a tree frog thread. o.0 (embarrassing) I generally remain in the tree frog subcategory threads. I just clicked on a recent thread and migrated to a category I dont normally migrate to. Im not even a keeper of horned frogs yet either! Good heads up though. Appreciated

Despite the confusion, I think I stumbled accross a good learning oportunity. Can you educate me on why horned frogs calcium needs are greater than a bombina or whites tree frog,red eye tree frog? I ask this because the general dusting guidelines for tree frogs is 3 times of calcium D3 a week and 1 time a week of vitamins with gutloaded crickets. Based off what other horned frog keepers are stating in this thread its the same guideline? I honestly think this would help me be less confused. Any supportive links would be awesome! I think I need a clearer picture:My question lies with this..

Despite feeding Higher protein and higher calcium insects your still keeping the amount of dusting the same for crickets verses earthworms/dubias ext ext.. for a horned frog? I am guessing that since you need a higher demand of calcium in horned frogs adaily calcium dusting would be sufficent if your using a daily staple diet of crickets since the calcium ratios are far less in cricket verses earthworm and dubia. I may be mistaken.
Either way I agree with a variety diet, I think its very benefitial to all herps.

Respectively,

Corey

[lovenokia]

Medium critter keepers are best heated with a Zoo Med Mini UTH made for Hermit Crab enclosures. They are safe for plastic and help maintain the heat within the keeper.

Should I go buy a uth then? I am going to go buy small crickets, and dust them with d3 and see if that will grab the frogs attention.

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[Lija]

Your temps are good, no need to do anything about it, how are you managing to maintain them without anything heating the enclosure itself? If you haven't done that already, you should cover 3 sides of your critter keeper with something, put a plant of some sorts to create a hide that he can hide under. Everything seems to be good, don't worry about dusting now, get exactly same size of crickets they used in a store before and throw some in a tank about half an hour after lights are off and temps down, see what will happen, if nothing then repeat same tomorrow without touching anything at all except changing water. Try not to move the keeper while doing so. Don't tong feed him just yet , let him adjust and eat what he is used to, and when you are confident he eats/poops then start tong training.
I'm sure he'll come around and please keep us posted

[mpmackenna]

Should I go buy a uth then? I am going to go buy small crickets, and dust them with d3 and see if that will grab the frogs attention.

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The main thing is maintaining 82F during the day and 78F at night with around 80% humidity all the time. Whether you use UTH or lamps (no daylight lamps) or heat emitter is not particularly important. I think Grif is just saying that for that size enclosure most have the best luck with the least effort with the UTH.


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[Lija]

The main thing is maintaining 82F during the day and 78F at night with around 80% humidity all the time. Whether you use UTH or lamps (no daylight lamps) or heat emitter is not particularly important. I think Grif is just saying that for that size enclosure most have the best luck with the least effort with the UTH.


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Lol UTH are Grifs thing, I've always hated them, they don't work for me when placed on a side, I use them for snakes
I don't like humidity at 80 either, I mean it is ok, but it like to keep it at 75-78 to have a room and not to go over 80. In general anything between 70 and 80 is fine.

[mpmackenna]

Lol UTH are Grifs thing, I've always hated them, they don't work for me when placed on a side, I use them for snakes
I don't like humidity at 80 either, I mean it is ok, but it like to keep it at 75-78 to have a room and not to go over 80. In general anything between 70 and 80 is fine.

Good to know. The more I read the more I realize how much is still unknown about what is "best", and how different people have had different experiences with different frogs in regards to the finer points of maintaining an optimum environment in captivity.


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[lovenokia]

Update: Frog has not eaten any of the small sized crickets I put in the tank. These small crickets were dusted with calcium, but it seems that he just did not want to eat them. They have been in the frog tank for 3 hours now, but I will take them out now.

[reptileszz]

Regardless of the need for dusting I don't dust with anything until the new animal (any reptile or amphib) has eaten a few times. Often they come from a store that is not dusting and the dust puts them off. Once they are eating I usually dust the "other end" of whatever I am feeding. Lead with the undusted part (obviously if this is a cricket it is impossible but with worms or bigger roaches you can do this). Then later on when they are taking the partially dusted food you can go for it and dust away. Just my 2 cents.

Carole

[CJ PELCHER]

Good to know. The more I read the more I realize how much is still unknown about what is "best", and how different people have had different experiences with different frogs in regards to the finer points of maintaining an optimum environment in captivity.


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Mike,

Actually for all animals there are alot of UNKOWNS. All we can do is rely on science and do our best to similate the environment they are naturally found in. This is actually why Im eager to learn why calcium intake is needed more in horned frogs verses other exotic frogs in the trade. Either way I only owned one pacman frog when I was a child and I never even gave it suppliments back then. Never had any experience frog keeping back in the 80's and early 90's. Lived for about 2 years without suppliments with just a cricket and mealworm diet. I never cared or even thought about an early death. I just thought it was his/her time. When I learned about supplimenting in the early 2000's I noticed extended life and it does play a significant roll on the general health of the frogs. I wish you luck feeding your little one. Wish I could help you out but the only pac I owned when I was young never had a problem stuffing his face. =/

[mpmackenna]

Mike,

Actually for all animals there are alot of UNKOWNS. All we can do is rely on science and do our best to similate the environment they are naturally found in. This is actually why Im eager to learn why calcium intake is needed more in horned frogs verses other exotic frogs in the trade. Either way I only owned one pacman frog when I was a child and I never even gave it suppliments back then. Never had any experience frog keeping back in the 80's and early 90's. Lived for about 2 years without suppliments with just a cricket and mealworm diet. I never cared or even thought about an early death. I just thought it was his/her time. When I learned about supplimenting in the early 2000's I noticed extended life and it does play a significant roll on the general health of the frogs. I wish you luck feeding your little one. Wish I could help you out but the only pac I owned when I was young never had a problem stuffing his face. =/

In the wild don't frogs get some calcium by eating vertebrates? Is it possible that ceratophrys members have a larger percentage of vertebrates in their diet than other frogs? No clue if that has any real validity to it. Just a random thought.


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[GrifTheGreat]

My appologies. I didnt not see HORNED frog in the thread. I thought i was in a tree frog thread. o.0 (embarrassing) I generally remain in the tree frog subcategory threads. I just clicked on a recent thread and migrated to a category I dont normally migrate to. Im not even a keeper of horned frogs yet either! Good heads up though. Appreciated

Despite the confusion, I think I stumbled accross a good learning oportunity. Can you educate me on why horned frogs calcium needs are greater than a bombina or whites tree frog,red eye tree frog? I ask this because the general dusting guidelines for tree frogs is 3 times of calcium D3 a week and 1 time a week of vitamins with gutloaded crickets. Based off what other horned frog keepers are stating in this thread its the same guideline? I honestly think this would help me be less confused. Any supportive links would be awesome! I think I need a clearer picture:My question lies with this..

Despite feeding Higher protein and higher calcium insects your still keeping the amount of dusting the same for crickets verses earthworms/dubias ext ext.. for a horned frog? I am guessing that since you need a higher demand of calcium in horned frogs adaily calcium dusting would be sufficent if your using a daily staple diet of crickets since the calcium ratios are far less in cricket verses earthworm and dubia. I may be mistaken.
Either way I agree with a variety diet, I think its very benefitial to all herps.

Respectively,

Corey

When I get time I'll find the article that mentions calcium requirements. Daily dusting is a little much, but it never hurts to dust a high calcium meal for extra benefit.

[Lija]

Mike,

Actually for all animals there are alot of UNKOWNS. All we can do is rely on science and do our best to similate the environment they are naturally found in. This is actually why Im eager to learn why calcium intake is needed more in horned frogs verses other exotic frogs in the trade. Either way I only owned one pacman frog when I was a child and I never even gave it suppliments back then. Never had any experience frog keeping back in the 80's and early 90's. Lived for about 2 years without suppliments with just a cricket and mealworm diet. I never cared or even thought about an early death. I just thought it was his/her time. When I learned about supplimenting in the early 2000's I noticed extended life and it does play a significant roll on the general health of the frogs. I wish you luck feeding your little one. Wish I could help you out but the only pac I owned when I was young never had a problem stuffing his face. =/

Corey- it is pretty simple, none of the frogs has similar growth rate as a horned frogs and african bullfrogs, they double, triple, etc their size/weight in a matter of weeks to the point that one day you have tiny 1" baby, 3 weeks later the baby is over 2" and in 1-2 month the baby is not a baby anymore and you can"t comprehend when did that happened. In order to grow this fast they need insane amounts of nutrition and supplementation, including Ca, however it all has to be balanced, thus dusting every other day and always gut loaded crickets( dubia) or worms, etc. I always gut load crickets for 1-2 days before feeding off.

and i agree with Carole too, with frogs as with exotics in general there is so so much unknown, no matter how much you know, no matter how experienced you are, you are still constantly learning something new. Talking of which, Grif, I'm looking forward to read that article too.

Lovenokia - don"t panic as i said before do not dust crickets yet, offer them plain and simple, same size as he used to eat before tonight again, and the next night, these little buggers sometimes just love to test our patience, I'm sure he"ll come around.

[GrifTheGreat]

Mike,

Actually for all animals there are alot of UNKOWNS. All we can do is rely on science and do our best to similate the environment they are naturally found in. This is actually why Im eager to learn why calcium intake is needed more in horned frogs verses other exotic frogs in the trade. Either way I only owned one pacman frog when I was a child and I never even gave it suppliments back then. Never had any experience frog keeping back in the 80's and early 90's. Lived for about 2 years without suppliments with just a cricket and mealworm diet. I never cared or even thought about an early death. I just thought it was his/her time. When I learned about supplimenting in the early 2000's I noticed extended life and it does play a significant roll on the general health of the frogs. I wish you luck feeding your little one. Wish I could help you out but the only pac I owned when I was young never had a problem stuffing his face. =/

Here you go CJ. http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...ank+indiviglio

[CJ PELCHER]

Corey- it is pretty simple, none of the frogs has similar growth rate as a horned frogs and african bullfrogs, they double, triple, etc their size/weight in a matter of weeks to the point that one day you have tiny 1" baby, 3 weeks later the baby is over 2" and in 1-2 month the baby is not a baby anymore and you can"t comprehend when did that happened. In order to grow this fast they need insane amounts of nutrition and supplementation, including Ca, however it all has to be balanced, thus dusting every other day and always gut loaded crickets( dubia) or worms, etc. I always gut load crickets for 1-2 days before feeding off.

and i agree with Carole too, with frogs as with exotics in general there is so so much unknown, no matter how much you know, no matter how experienced you are, you are still constantly learning something new. Talking of which, Grif, I'm looking forward to read that article too.

Lovenokia - don"t panic as i said before do not dust crickets yet, offer them plain and simple, same size as he used to eat before tonight again, and the next night, these little buggers sometimes just love to test our patience, I'm sure he"ll come around.

Lija,

You know that would explain alot. Hmmm I never knew the growth rate of a horned frog. I just know that my whites dumpys are hard to keep up with. Not even 2 months old and they are already eating large crickets. As a subadult at 6 months old they are eating adult dubia roaches. I have over 30 juveniles and 4 subadults right now. These guys alone go through 500 crickets a week. They will double in size about every 2 weeks. So I have a clearer picture now on the relation and dusting requirements. Thanks. What a splendid thread. Only thing at this point that would make this thread better is getting lovenokias froglet to eat!!

[GrifTheGreat]

Lija,

You know that would explain alot. Hmmm I never knew the growth rate of a horned frog. I just know that my whites dumpys are hard to keep up with. Not even 2 months old and they are already eating large crickets. As a subadult at 6 months old they are eating adult dubia roaches. I have over 30 juveniles and 4 subadults right now. These guys alone go through 500 crickets a week. They will double in size about every 2 weeks. So I have a clearer picture now on the relation and dusting requirements. Thanks. What a splendid thread. Only thing at this point that would make this thread better is getting lovenokias froglet to eat!!

I have a male C. joazeirensis(Caatinga) that reached 3.5" in 1 month.

Edit; Oh to give you an idea of that growth rate. He was the size of a nickel when I got him.

[lovenokia]

Frog is just not eating. I have been buying small crickets every day, been trying to let him hunt, but he does not want to eat. Now the frog looks too thin. From the crickets that I have dropped in there he seems to only have eaten 2 small crickets. I am worried now. Should I take the frog back to petsmart and have it return to it's normal habitat? The frog just does not want nightcrawlers or crickets that I put in front of his mouth. I have tried dusted and non dusted.

[mpmackenna]

Frog is just not eating. I have been buying small crickets every day, been trying to let him hunt, but he does not want to eat. Now the frog looks too thin. From the crickets that I have dropped in there he seems to only have eaten 2 small crickets. I am worried now. Should I take the frog back to petsmart and have it return to it's normal habitat? The frog just does not want nightcrawlers or crickets that I put in front of his mouth. I have tried dusted and non dusted.

Post pictures of your frog and your enclosure. Perhaps images will help to bring to light something we missed.


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