Worried about my poor Master Bellatinizer

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I am looking for advice on my not-feeling-so-well Master Bellatinizer. Have had him since 2010 when he was very young. He has gone from a semi dark green toad to an almost blackish green toad and he no longer does the thing with his chin anymore, there is no motion below his mouth. He tends to crack his mouth open a little bit sometimes as if breathing through his mouth and he closes his eyes for prolonged periods of time, even when I hold him. He just generally looks ill and not feeling good at all. He hardly eats any more and has lost a lot of muscle mass over the past few months and I have tried everything I can to nurse him back to good health.. heat, light, vitamin powder. He has shrunken in size overall, doesn't move much at all anymore, no longer makes any noise. I am very concerned for my little fellow and would appreciate any suggestions/advice out there. He is housed with 6 other healthy fire belly toads.

sorry i only have an old flip phone camera but here he is now.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Sorry your FBT is not doing well . It would help lots if you please answer below questions so we have a better idea of what's going on, thank you !

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


1. Tank Size and volume of water in it (full, 1/2 filled, etc.)?

2. Number of inhabitants including all frogs and any fish?

3. Water source and any conditioner treatments?

4. Water Temperature and how is it heated (if so)?

5. Water chemistry levels: pH; Ammonia (NH3); Nitrites (NO2); Nitrates (NO3)? Note that if you do not have test kits, most aquariums/pet shops will do complimentary tests if you take a clean water sample.

6. Describe any filter system including model and media?

7. Substrate type?

8. Tank set-up (plants (live or artificial), driftwood, hide outs and other decor? - How were things prepared prior to being put into the tank?

9. Main frog staple food and any treats? How often you feed?

10. CA, vitamins, and any other additives used (how often)?

11. Lighting set-up and hours it's used?

12. When is the last time frog ate?

13. Have you found poop lately?

14. A picture would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pics are fine).

15. How old is the frog?

16. How long have you owned him/her?

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred?

18. Any medications in the water (treatment dosis and for how long)?

19. Any salt in water (how much)?

20. Is the tank kept in a high or low traffic area?

21. Describe tank maintenance to include water changes, cleaning, media changes, etc.).

By Lynn(flybyferns), GrifTheGreat, and aquatic questions added by Carlos(Mentat)

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1. Tank Size and volume of water in it (full, 1/2 filled, etc.)?
10 gallon tank, about an inch or less of water.

2. Number of inhabitants including all frogs and any fish?
7 toads total. 6 healthy

3. Water source and any conditioner treatments?
ALWAYS bottled water

4. Water Temperature and how is it heated (if so)?
The tank is not normally heated unless it is winter time. I use a ZooMed heatpad, but they tend to stear clear of the application site, so i take it they don't like it.

5. Water chemistry levels: pH; Ammonia (NH3); Nitrites (NO2); Nitrates (NO3)? Note that if you do not have test kits, most aquariums/pet shops will do complimentary tests if you take a clean water sample.
This one will have to wait until I can

6. Describe any filter system including model and media?

No filters. All water is stagnant

7. Substrate type?
Purely Sphagnum moss sold at petco/petsmart.

8. Tank set-up (plants (live or artificial), driftwood, hide outs and other decor? - How were things prepared prior to being put into the tank?
Artificial plants. Hollowed out bark for their privacy.

9. Main frog staple food and any treats? How often you feed?
I used to give these guys an all you can eat buffet. I know, that's bad. I stopped doing that. I feed them twice a week now.
Their main food is crickets and wax worms.

10. CA, vitamins, and any other additives used (how often)?
Occasionally I dust with the zoomed vitamin D calcium powder. Maybe 3 or 4 times a month. I used to do it more until I was told I was using too much.

11. Lighting set-up and hours it's used?
I read mixed reviews on several websites about lighting I do not have a dedicated light set up for them.

12. When is the last time frog ate?
Master Bellatinizer ate less than a week ago. But he seems to eat just enough to stay alive.

13. Have you found poop lately?
This I would not know unless I isolate him from the rest. I have extra tanks so this can be done.

14. A picture would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pics are fine).
Master Bellatinizer (sick one)

Master Bellatinizer with a couple other healthy occupants

another healthy occupant

yet another...

and another...

Here is the entire enclosure.


15. How old is the frog?
I acquired Master Bellatinizer in 2010 and he was not an adult yet, but not quite a baby. Perhaps I would say he was a juvenile??

16. How long have you owned him/her?
3 years

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred?
Captive from pet store.

18. Any medications in the water (treatment dosis and for how long)?
None

19. Any salt in water (how much)?
None that I am aware of.

20. Is the tank kept in a high or low traffic area?
Low traffic, quiet area. well lit room and NEVER in direct sunlight.

21. Describe tank maintenance to include water changes, cleaning, media changes, etc.).
Okay, I am a little bad with the water changes, considering I have to haul the heavy tank downstairs and to the backyard to wash it out each time. Every couple weeks is the norm for me. I figured it wasn't too big of a deal since the other guys are healthy and have been healthy all this time. I have had most of them for 2 years already, others 1 year.. Would they not be sick also if water was involved?

Thanks.

[Mentat]

Could you expand on which type of bottled water (filtered, spring, de-ionized, distilled, etc.)? First thing would do is to transfer you ill frog to it's own hospital enclosure where you can monitor feeding and observe if it's pooping, etc. Will wait for your answer on water type because that could be part of problem. Also, a water change every 2 weeks is not enough, even on a tank with a filter. After you tell us water type, will recommend a cleaning schedule.

IRT supplements, think 3-4 times a month is a light schedule. Did person who recommended that gave you reasons for it? Thank you !

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Thank you for your response. I should have posted on here about 8 or 9 months ago when he started turning dark but he has always retained his weight, gone back to what i would call a partial green, and eaten well. I didn't think much of it since my other toads change dark sometimes, but ALWAYS go back to normal after a few days. But Master Bellatinizer just recently began losing mass though and seldom eats. Most of the time now he misses his food and gives up. That is what scares me.

As for the water, it is bottled Spring Water. I will get a filtration system if that is what I need. I will wait to hear back regarding how frequently I should be changing the water.

And for the supplements, I used to use them a LOT LOT and I was warned that liver damage can occur if used too frequently, so i got paranoid and cut down quite a bit.

But what about his constant mouth popping? He opens his mouth and closes it real fast, several times a minute, especially when i hold him, as if his jaw is bothering him or something. And what would cause his chin to stop doing that up and down motion? I call it chewing gum because i don't know the proper terminology, and he does not do that anymore and I have never seen a frog or newt NOT do that. I really hope he isn't in pain, and I have no way of knowing..??

I will put him inside the temporary holding tank I have. I am picking up crickets tomorrow anyway so I will watch for poop when he eats, if he does.

Thanks.

[Mentat]

Spring bottled water is good if really from a spring. Sadly some localities allow companies to add chemicals to water and you need to check on that; or use dechlorinated tap. For water changes what I would do is get a small aquarium gravel siphon kit (with squeeze start bulb) and drain the water into a bucket daily and replace with dechlorinated tap or un-adultered spring.

If frog eats let us know, if it eats poorly could dust it's food with Fluker's Repta Boost. Also, have you tried to feed it night crawlers? IRT supplements and if you fear organ damage, at least dust 1 cricket with CA/D3 2x and vitamins 1X weekly on different days with skip day in between.

Not sure what the constant mouth popping indicates and can't ID frog ailment so far. Would like to get some extra nourishment in it; hence the supplement and Repta Boost recommendation .

[scound]

Thanks for all your help so far. We live out in the sticks so we do have well water. Are there any hidden concerns regarding using that?

Siphon kit sounds like a genius idea for getting around hauling the tank around each time for cleaning. I really wish I would have thought of that ages ago!!

Master Bellatinizer just ate 2 waxworms of decent size. Slightly dusted with reptivite-calcium/D3 powder which mostly came off once the worms got a little wet, but he managed to eat them both. He seemed very hungry and had a difficult time catching them. Of course I was there to assist him with tweezers. Whatever problem he is having with his mouth is causing him to end up knocking the food out of his mouth with his arms each time. It seems he has trouble getting his tongue to stick? Just from a general observation, he seems more likely to spit the dusted food out than not.

He has been separated in this tiny carryout in a 1/4inch of water with a few fake leaves for the moment. I left out the moss because I will never see if he poops with that in there. I also gave him the tip of the heating pad, so he can decide if he wants to be warm or cool.


I will update as soon as I see poop. Or if I don't see poop within a couple days. Whichever comes first.

What are signs of organ damage in a firebelly toad? I really hope we can rule that out as a factor..??

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Update. I guess he never actually swallowed the second waxworm. He has since spit it out and only retained one. This doesn't seem good.

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UPDATE: Okay, he pooped what appears to be normal at first. But then he also seems to have pooped out about an 80% digested waxworm. Meaning, I could still tell it was a waxworm. Could he not be digesting properly?? What are the next steps now that we know he is pooping?

Thanks.