Help with advice about poorly frogs

[Truffs1178]

A long post is a good thing, full of the details. I'm not quite sure why they are all dying. I think you'd better answer the trouble in the enclosure questions as well but I don't think they will be much help either looking at all you have written. Lets see if Carlos has anything to say.

[Lousfrogs]

Thanks for that Jack. I would be interested in any advice. By some miracle, all 6 are still alive this morning. The active small one still seems happy, other sitting around quietly, most with head up except the one with the ulcer on his eye was low to the ground and bunched up, and the one with the very plastic-y skin was lying down with his legs bunched in. I think one of the pink-y ones might have had a seizure as he was shaking for about 10 seconds, but then it stopped and his body didn't move from the spot. Gave them a salt bath while I cleaned the hospital tank - all perked up except the plastic-y one, and the one with the ulcer on his eye only a little, but may seem a little bit brighter than yesterday. The other frog still has a massive right thigh. All but one of the frogs is shedding its skin. The plastic-y one still seems to be shedding the same skin from yesterday, which seems to have stopped shedding around his head - should I try to carefully pull it off? The one with the ulcer on his eye (which hasn't changed today or yesterday) is a pale green, the others are a mid green instead of their usual dark green. Under torch light, the plastic-y one has a grey/white-green tinge to the skin on the back of his head and back - possibly a fungal infection? Should I treat with malachite green?

[flybyferns]

Have you considered repeating the lamisil treatment and separating each little frog into it's own container.
Clean each container ... everyday. Find a sure fire way to never mix-up the containers.
If they are to be released----They need to be healthy. Releasing a sick frog is disastrous !
In fact, you might get expert advice on this .

RAL - Test : Reptile ( perhaps you could email them and get information on similar businesses in the UK ?)

FDR Inc. The Australian Diseases - Chytrid Fungus Treatment Techniques

information:
The 2011 UK Chytrid Survey


You have worked so hard so sorry. You took on a massive task.

Keeping captive bred frogs ( especially ) darts is easy.
Your responsibility is to simply learn what they need............. to keep them happy and healthy.
My goodness.......after what you have been through........it sure seems as though YOU can do that !

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Lynn, Thank you for your kind message and I have considered re-doing the Lamisil treatment, so that will be my next plan of action. I think individual containers could be good too, as the 3 that are still doing OK include the pink one that may or may not have had red leg and anything connected to it. The one small frog is really happy and active, bouncing around the hospital tank like crazy, and he and the other 2 are eating crickets again. The plastic-y frog is definitely on his last legs, and his back legs keep twitching. The sides of his belly seem to be filled with clear fluid - you can see through the skin to the bottom! The frog with he ulcer on its eye is still very quiet but I think may be getting a tiny bit better. The one with the massively swollen right leg is still very swollen, and a few days ago he was happy with it, still trying to eat the crickets, but now he is very unhappy and can't move far to catch a cricket. I really don't know what to do for him, and am worried the Lamisil could either make it better or make it worse. Has anyone ever used malachite green with frog fungal infections? Just wondering if that is another option... I have actually become completely obsessed with frogs of all kinds since keeping them, and particularly intrigued into the issues of diseases such as ranavirus and chytrid that are just blazing through populations and it seems to be a case of "see who survives". I wish I could do more. I hadn't planned to release any of these frogs, either keep them in the 4 foot tank or put them in a pond in our garden, which is completely walled so they wouldn't have gotten out to affect a surrounding population. Sadly, I am not sure anyone of them will reach their 1st birthday, let alone adulthood. Thank you also for the encouragement to get another frog after this is over. I am going to take my time researching the dart and pacman breeds, although I fell in love with the white footed trilling frog, although I am not sure it is sold as a pet. Thanks again, and if anyone is interested, I have now taken some photos of the affected frogs, and would love to know if I can load them somewhere on this site to get a second opinion? Thanks

[Mentat]

OK, from reading your second post appears to me the froglets could have suffered from Toxin Out Syndrome (TOS) due to "weekly to 10 days 25% water changes." Normally recommend changing at least 25% of water daily when there is no cycled filter in use. Then came the high temps and if the frogspawn had been exposed to Chytrid; it could have triggered the first issues with it. Did you record how hot it got in enclosure?

From there it appears you stopped the pathogen; but then, other issues have been surfacing because some frogs are relapsing (excessive shedding, etc.), and others are developing bacterial issues (eye infection and possible Red Leg). It is very possible TOS did internal organ damage (edema) and their immune system is very compromised.

So now only thing left is to try and save the remaining frogs. Recommend you follow Lynn's advice and complete the Lamasil treatment. Also, make sure the Spring Water is real spring without additives that could be bad for frogs (chloramines). Then see if you can get some Melafix and Pimafix in aquarium shop. If you can find them, let me know here and we will discuss a follow on treatment. Those two are natural based meds and will be milder than using chemical treatments like MG or antibiotics. Good luck !

[Lousfrogs]

Thanks for replying Carlos. I feel awful, I didn't realise I needed to change the main water so often. Some of the frogs didn't even use it, but used the feeding bowl ponds, which I replaced the water twice daily. The spring water I use doesn't contain any additives, and I guess I have to trust it actually came from the spring they claim it did, as with all spring water. At its hottest, it reached 30degC in the tank. I put the spring water in the fridge and used it when I did the water changes, getting all the frogs to go in there to cool down, although they were often in the feeding bowl ponds. The plastic looking frog passed in the night, I took some photos yesterday, when shining a torch down on him, his sides were filled with a clear fluid. The 3 healthier ones still seem OK, especially the small one. The one with the ulcer on his eye seems a tiny bit better, but is refusing to eat, and the one with the swollen leg is still very swollen (one photo I took showed 2 small yellow patches on the underside of the swollen thigh, and the thigh is very red, he has become very unhappy and now also refuses to eat. They are only 2-3cm in size, so I can't imagine how I could ever force feed them. I can get both Melafix and Pimafix from my local pet store, so have bought both and will await your instructions. Both are by API and the Melafix is 240ml and the Pimafix is 118ml. I will also get the Lamisil at the shops this evening, but won't start any treatment until I hear from you. I have bathed them in a saline solution twice a day for the past few days - should I continue that too? The pictures show 1. the frog with the very swollen right leg and 2. the frog that I thought had red leg, he no longer has red thighs but his skin has remained pinkish, almost copper gold in some lights, and veins are visible beneath his skin. You can see how different he is to the other 2. He is one of the most active frogs though.

[Mentat]

OK, Melafix is a mild natural bactericide and Pimafix is a mild fungicide with some effect against internal bacteria. Also, Pimafix will kill the white little Planaria worms that inhabit many tanks (live of detritus); so if you see some white little things floating around do not worry.

Both medications can be used together, so what you will do is premix like a gallon of it in dechlorinated water according to label instructions. Then use that medicating solution in pond area and/or frog's baths. Once mixed you can store solution in a dark place. You will replace it 100% daily and treat for 7 days. If a frog is to weak or does not visit the medicated solution; gently place it on it (level to it's chin is fine) and keep frog there for around 20 minutes ea. day.

Le us know how things go and hopefully frogs will improve some. Have no idea of any possible interaction/interference with the Lamasil treatment; so would complete that before doing the Melafix/Pimafix bath. Hope the frogs do recover, but if internal organs have been damaged, we can't repair that. Good luck !