Help with advice about poorly frogs

[Lousfrogs]

I have wanted a dart frog for some time, but was unsure about how to care for one. A friend wanted to get rid of some unwanted frogspawn (common frog) from her pond that had too much, so I thought it would be good practice to look after them, and release into a pond we planned to put in our garden. The frogspawn turned to tadpoles, then to froglets and with lots of research and hours of care, I had 45 very happy healthy froglets. I bought a massive 4 foot tank for them, with a 3 inch deep pond at one end and dry land at the other. Suddenly, I lost 3 frogs, even though I clean the tank regularly and nothing changed. My research brought about information about chytrid fungus, so I treated them with a dilution of Lamisil as recommended, daily for 10 days (yes, it was great fun catching 42 frogs every day! not) It seemed to work, as they continued to thrive and grow and no more deaths. Then, about 6 weeks ago, when it was really hot, a frog died every few days. Most had no apparent reason for their death. I am now sadly down to 6 frogs, and I fear at least 3 of them will die very soon. There have been cases of ranavirus in our area, so I guess they could have this? I am trying to make their last few days as comfortable as possible, but have noticed one of the frogs now has a massively swollen right leg. I can't find any reason online for this and am really not sure what to do. One of the frogs still seems very active but 2 of them are quite pale, and are almost pink. When I carefully turn them over, there are lots of blood vessels close to the skin. I researched red leg, and they have been in hospital tanks, individually quarantined for the past couple of weeks. They picked up after I gave them a couple of salt baths (I read this helped online) and started eating again. I bought calci worms (had been feeding them crickets since they morphed) which they loved, but they have been throwing them up after a few hours, or pooing them out undigested. I know this forum is predominantly for exotic frogs, but thought someone might give me some advice. I don't have any specialist vets in my area, and the pet stores aren't massively into reptiles/amphibians. One pet store recommended a copper sulphate solution, but I have heard controversial things about this. I fear they are all dying of some horrible disease, so I just want to make them comfortable, but am really worried about the frog with the swollen leg in particular. On a secondary note, during my research, I have read that common frogs are very susceptible to diseases and infections. This has been a very traumatic experience for us, so I am wondering if keeping a pet exotic frog will be the same? Any advice would be great. Additional note - the frogs don't exhibit any external ulcers or bleeding that leaves the body (via mouth/anus) as per the symptoms described of ranavirus on some websites, so maybe they have something completely different. They are off their food, less active, some appear to have plastic-y skin despite being in water, and sloughing their skin very regularly.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Sorry for your froggie tragedy . First of all stop feeding calci-worms (Hermetia illucens); they are extremely hard to digest, and not the best food for a recovering frog. Gut loaded crickets sized same as distance between eyes or earthworms are a better food. If the salt treatment was working and you can get frogs to eat; would continue that until they get better.

Having frogs in the wild is a bit different from having them in a controlled environment. One of the things would check is describing pond, material it's made off, and include a picture if possible. Then would need to discuss the water, type, and if you tested it's pH, ammonia, and nitrite levels.

What made you think frogs had Chytrid fungus? What symptoms where frogs exhibiting? IMO common frogs are not more susceptible to pathogens than exotics. Any frog can be exposed to pathogens and depending on it's immune system it can handle (or not) a number of pathogens. Stress the frog out or if environment gives the upper hand to pathogen... and both the common or exotic frogs will be in trouble .

If you want to keep an exotic frog (and being frog fans we want all humans to do so) will need to sterilize any enclosures and materials, decor, etc. that where in contact with the sick frogs. Need to research what frog to keep: Frog Forum - Choosing a Frog. Then once you decide, read the appropriate care article and set-up an enclosure that meets the frogs needs. When you get your frogs, quarantine them for 30 days minimum with 2 negative fecals 2 weeks apart and that will get you started correctly with your new frog pet/s. Good luck !

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Mentat and thank you so much for replying to me. I am not sure how to load images for you to see, but will do my best to explain the environment etc. I first kept the frogspawn in a big tank, and when they morphed I then moved them to a fantastic plastic tank that had a raised central part, with slope up to it, so I could have an inch or so water in the bottom, and the frogs could stay dry and eat crickets up on the top part. When they got bigger, and they were really doing immensely well and growing a lot, I bought a 4 foot glass tank. I thoroughly cleaned it before use with a bleach solution, then rinsed a couple times, then washed it with a very strong dilution on AquaSafe before using. I did this with all new toys and plastic plants etc I introduced. They continued to thrive for a couple of months, until it started to get hot in early July. I have been keeping an in-depth diary of their progress since the day I brought the frog spawn home, and they have been a major part of my life since. I wanted them to have a decent amount of water to swim in and strengthen their leg muscles, so I used a plastic storage box to raise the level at one end of the tank, and then covered with gravel, creating a gradual slope down to nothing at the other end, meaning the highest end was dry or slightly damp where I kept some moss if they wanted to be dry. I also sunk a couple of feeding bowls into the gravel, so if they didn't want to travel all the way down to the "pond" as I call it, at the other end of the tank, they could dive into the feeding bowl which I filled with water that I changed twice daily. I did a 2 litre (about 25% or slightly more) water change every week to 10 days, as they pooed a lot, and some crickets would drown in there too. I gave them mostly brown and black crickets (2nd moult now they are bigger) fed on calcium jelly pots, potato and bug grub, and once fruit flies - though I think this stressed them out as they hatched too quickly. They seemed really happy, loved climbing over all the toys I got, and were establishing their own little areas in the tank, and some of them were really friendly, although I didn't handle them much. I was using tap water, left overnight and treated with AquaSafe, and then EasyBalance once a week to 10 days. I lost the first frog on 4th July - there was a tiny pink patch on his tummy, poss bleeding inside? Had his head partially open, and his head was stuck in an upward position - I found him floating in the "pond" end of the tank. The next frog died on the 8th July, without the pink belly, open mouth, or stiff head. It was hot, so I thought it was heat stroke. Found him in one of the feeding bowl ponds. 3 frogs then died on 11th July, 2 in the same way as the last and in the same feeding bowl pond, and the 3rd in the "pond". All seemed healthy and well developed. 2 others were not looking great - one had erratic breathing and another seemed to be rubbing his bloated tummy with his hind legs. I researched this, and came across edema, so gave them all a bath in spring water, and since then, have been using spring water, rather than treated tap water. 2 more frogs died on 14th July, both in the "pond" and this was when it was ridiculously hot weather. The other frogs were all still very active and eating well. Another frog died on 15th July. I added extra water to the "pond" so that the whole tank was damp to help keep them cool. I also made them all go in the "pond" twice a day to cool down, and they seemed to enjoy this. But, another one died on the 16th July, in one of the feeding bowl ponds, and a tiny bit of blood came out of his mouth when I put his body on a tissue, although his mouth seemed to be firmly closed, and no more came. Another frog died later that day, with his mouth slightly open and a white tissue (his tongue?) filling it. The rest of the frogs were no longer happy, bunching their legs in close and staying close to the ground, in water, often fully submerged. This is when they started sloughi ng their skin regularly, and another 2 frogs died on the 17th July and another had a pinkish hue to its skin. Another 3 healthy looking frogs died the next day, 3 the day after, 6 the next day. I then did a complete water change, took everything out of the tank, bleached it, rinsed it, soaked it in very strong AquaSafe dilution again. The frogs then seemed a lot happy, and very hungry. No more died until 9th August, a really big frog (when I say big, they are still only about 3 cm long) who seemed healthy. Others seemed OK, but one was rubbing his bloated tummy again with his hind legs, and another was sloughing his skin. In the meantime, I had continued my previous daily cleaning of the tank walls, twice daily water changes in the feeding bowl ponds and weekly to 10 days water change of the "pond". Another frog died on 11th August, with skin shedding off it. The next day, I removed all remaining frogs to a hospital tank and gave them a 1 minute bath in a salt dilution (1 teaspoon salt/1 cup water) followed by 2 rinses in fresh water before going back to the hospital tank whilst I cleaned the entire main tank again. The frogs seemed happier, and I have given them more dilute salt baths for 3 minutes every other day since, as this was recommended to help boost their immune system. They seemed happier, although a couple of them a lighter green colour. A few days later, another frog died! A few more episodes of sloughing skin and tummy rubbing but on the whole they were doing OK. 23rd August, a frog was not happy, and skin looked plastic-y. Next day, he was dead, no physical signs, but head stuck upwards. A couple of the frogs pale and skinny, but most of them active and feeding well. 27th August - another frog died, mouth partly open, and red under skin of belly - not thighs. Another frog had a cloudy right eye. A couple of days later, the cloudy eye was a big bulge! I removed him to the hospital tank, and gave him salt water baths twice daily, which have helped massively - it is now almost gone, although I think he is now blind in that eye as it is marbled, although he became poorly yesterday, and I fear he won't last the night. He has gone very pale, and won't eat or move, and he was one of the most active and friendly of them. Another frog had reddened thighs, so I put him in a different tank on damp kitchen roll, and he was much better in a few days, although now he has golden/pink skin that is stretched so tight on him and dry that it looks like it will burst, and he was also very bolshy but today he is quiet. The last few frogs to die have either faded over several days despite all efforts, or been healthy to the very last and their death was a total shock. Apart from going quiet and lethargic, not eating, and sloughing skin, there haven't been many distinctive symptoms. The pinkish tinge to the skin suggests internal bleeding I guess, together with red veins close to the surface of the skin? There has been some bloating, despite using spring water and changing it regularly. I really don't know what to do. I doubt 2 of these remaining 6 with last the night, and the 2 pink ones seem very unhappy. The one with a massively swollen right leg isn't too great either. Only one seems still active but not eating. Any advice? Happy to send pics if you can tell me how. Thanks again

[Truffs1178]

Ok first of all you have just got the frog forum record for longest post.

I think one of the main problems was the water. It should have been changed daily or every two days. They need very clean water.

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Jack. Sorry for the length of that post! It has been a long time of looking after these little guys. I have changed the water in the feeding bowl ponds twice daily, and they didn't use the main "pond" as much, but the filter kept it pretty clean, when I changed it I stirred around to try and get bits of poo and dead crickets the filter didn't get. But surely common frogs live in dirty stagnant ponds and muddy puddles? I thought doing a 25% water change every week to 10 days would have been sufficient, and was more than I did for the fish I used to keep years ago. Also, keeping them in the hospital tanks, changing their water every day for the past few weeks, they have still continued to deteriorate and die.

[Truffs1178]

A long post is a good thing, full of the details. I'm not quite sure why they are all dying. I think you'd better answer the trouble in the enclosure questions as well but I don't think they will be much help either looking at all you have written. Lets see if Carlos has anything to say.