Help with advice about poorly frogs

[Lousfrogs]

I have wanted a dart frog for some time, but was unsure about how to care for one. A friend wanted to get rid of some unwanted frogspawn (common frog) from her pond that had too much, so I thought it would be good practice to look after them, and release into a pond we planned to put in our garden. The frogspawn turned to tadpoles, then to froglets and with lots of research and hours of care, I had 45 very happy healthy froglets. I bought a massive 4 foot tank for them, with a 3 inch deep pond at one end and dry land at the other. Suddenly, I lost 3 frogs, even though I clean the tank regularly and nothing changed. My research brought about information about chytrid fungus, so I treated them with a dilution of Lamisil as recommended, daily for 10 days (yes, it was great fun catching 42 frogs every day! not) It seemed to work, as they continued to thrive and grow and no more deaths. Then, about 6 weeks ago, when it was really hot, a frog died every few days. Most had no apparent reason for their death. I am now sadly down to 6 frogs, and I fear at least 3 of them will die very soon. There have been cases of ranavirus in our area, so I guess they could have this? I am trying to make their last few days as comfortable as possible, but have noticed one of the frogs now has a massively swollen right leg. I can't find any reason online for this and am really not sure what to do. One of the frogs still seems very active but 2 of them are quite pale, and are almost pink. When I carefully turn them over, there are lots of blood vessels close to the skin. I researched red leg, and they have been in hospital tanks, individually quarantined for the past couple of weeks. They picked up after I gave them a couple of salt baths (I read this helped online) and started eating again. I bought calci worms (had been feeding them crickets since they morphed) which they loved, but they have been throwing them up after a few hours, or pooing them out undigested. I know this forum is predominantly for exotic frogs, but thought someone might give me some advice. I don't have any specialist vets in my area, and the pet stores aren't massively into reptiles/amphibians. One pet store recommended a copper sulphate solution, but I have heard controversial things about this. I fear they are all dying of some horrible disease, so I just want to make them comfortable, but am really worried about the frog with the swollen leg in particular. On a secondary note, during my research, I have read that common frogs are very susceptible to diseases and infections. This has been a very traumatic experience for us, so I am wondering if keeping a pet exotic frog will be the same? Any advice would be great. Additional note - the frogs don't exhibit any external ulcers or bleeding that leaves the body (via mouth/anus) as per the symptoms described of ranavirus on some websites, so maybe they have something completely different. They are off their food, less active, some appear to have plastic-y skin despite being in water, and sloughing their skin very regularly.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Sorry for your froggie tragedy . First of all stop feeding calci-worms (Hermetia illucens); they are extremely hard to digest, and not the best food for a recovering frog. Gut loaded crickets sized same as distance between eyes or earthworms are a better food. If the salt treatment was working and you can get frogs to eat; would continue that until they get better.

Having frogs in the wild is a bit different from having them in a controlled environment. One of the things would check is describing pond, material it's made off, and include a picture if possible. Then would need to discuss the water, type, and if you tested it's pH, ammonia, and nitrite levels.

What made you think frogs had Chytrid fungus? What symptoms where frogs exhibiting? IMO common frogs are not more susceptible to pathogens than exotics. Any frog can be exposed to pathogens and depending on it's immune system it can handle (or not) a number of pathogens. Stress the frog out or if environment gives the upper hand to pathogen... and both the common or exotic frogs will be in trouble .

If you want to keep an exotic frog (and being frog fans we want all humans to do so) will need to sterilize any enclosures and materials, decor, etc. that where in contact with the sick frogs. Need to research what frog to keep: Frog Forum - Choosing a Frog. Then once you decide, read the appropriate care article and set-up an enclosure that meets the frogs needs. When you get your frogs, quarantine them for 30 days minimum with 2 negative fecals 2 weeks apart and that will get you started correctly with your new frog pet/s. Good luck !

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Mentat and thank you so much for replying to me. I am not sure how to load images for you to see, but will do my best to explain the environment etc. I first kept the frogspawn in a big tank, and when they morphed I then moved them to a fantastic plastic tank that had a raised central part, with slope up to it, so I could have an inch or so water in the bottom, and the frogs could stay dry and eat crickets up on the top part. When they got bigger, and they were really doing immensely well and growing a lot, I bought a 4 foot glass tank. I thoroughly cleaned it before use with a bleach solution, then rinsed a couple times, then washed it with a very strong dilution on AquaSafe before using. I did this with all new toys and plastic plants etc I introduced. They continued to thrive for a couple of months, until it started to get hot in early July. I have been keeping an in-depth diary of their progress since the day I brought the frog spawn home, and they have been a major part of my life since. I wanted them to have a decent amount of water to swim in and strengthen their leg muscles, so I used a plastic storage box to raise the level at one end of the tank, and then covered with gravel, creating a gradual slope down to nothing at the other end, meaning the highest end was dry or slightly damp where I kept some moss if they wanted to be dry. I also sunk a couple of feeding bowls into the gravel, so if they didn't want to travel all the way down to the "pond" as I call it, at the other end of the tank, they could dive into the feeding bowl which I filled with water that I changed twice daily. I did a 2 litre (about 25% or slightly more) water change every week to 10 days, as they pooed a lot, and some crickets would drown in there too. I gave them mostly brown and black crickets (2nd moult now they are bigger) fed on calcium jelly pots, potato and bug grub, and once fruit flies - though I think this stressed them out as they hatched too quickly. They seemed really happy, loved climbing over all the toys I got, and were establishing their own little areas in the tank, and some of them were really friendly, although I didn't handle them much. I was using tap water, left overnight and treated with AquaSafe, and then EasyBalance once a week to 10 days. I lost the first frog on 4th July - there was a tiny pink patch on his tummy, poss bleeding inside? Had his head partially open, and his head was stuck in an upward position - I found him floating in the "pond" end of the tank. The next frog died on the 8th July, without the pink belly, open mouth, or stiff head. It was hot, so I thought it was heat stroke. Found him in one of the feeding bowl ponds. 3 frogs then died on 11th July, 2 in the same way as the last and in the same feeding bowl pond, and the 3rd in the "pond". All seemed healthy and well developed. 2 others were not looking great - one had erratic breathing and another seemed to be rubbing his bloated tummy with his hind legs. I researched this, and came across edema, so gave them all a bath in spring water, and since then, have been using spring water, rather than treated tap water. 2 more frogs died on 14th July, both in the "pond" and this was when it was ridiculously hot weather. The other frogs were all still very active and eating well. Another frog died on 15th July. I added extra water to the "pond" so that the whole tank was damp to help keep them cool. I also made them all go in the "pond" twice a day to cool down, and they seemed to enjoy this. But, another one died on the 16th July, in one of the feeding bowl ponds, and a tiny bit of blood came out of his mouth when I put his body on a tissue, although his mouth seemed to be firmly closed, and no more came. Another frog died later that day, with his mouth slightly open and a white tissue (his tongue?) filling it. The rest of the frogs were no longer happy, bunching their legs in close and staying close to the ground, in water, often fully submerged. This is when they started sloughi ng their skin regularly, and another 2 frogs died on the 17th July and another had a pinkish hue to its skin. Another 3 healthy looking frogs died the next day, 3 the day after, 6 the next day. I then did a complete water change, took everything out of the tank, bleached it, rinsed it, soaked it in very strong AquaSafe dilution again. The frogs then seemed a lot happy, and very hungry. No more died until 9th August, a really big frog (when I say big, they are still only about 3 cm long) who seemed healthy. Others seemed OK, but one was rubbing his bloated tummy again with his hind legs, and another was sloughing his skin. In the meantime, I had continued my previous daily cleaning of the tank walls, twice daily water changes in the feeding bowl ponds and weekly to 10 days water change of the "pond". Another frog died on 11th August, with skin shedding off it. The next day, I removed all remaining frogs to a hospital tank and gave them a 1 minute bath in a salt dilution (1 teaspoon salt/1 cup water) followed by 2 rinses in fresh water before going back to the hospital tank whilst I cleaned the entire main tank again. The frogs seemed happier, and I have given them more dilute salt baths for 3 minutes every other day since, as this was recommended to help boost their immune system. They seemed happier, although a couple of them a lighter green colour. A few days later, another frog died! A few more episodes of sloughing skin and tummy rubbing but on the whole they were doing OK. 23rd August, a frog was not happy, and skin looked plastic-y. Next day, he was dead, no physical signs, but head stuck upwards. A couple of the frogs pale and skinny, but most of them active and feeding well. 27th August - another frog died, mouth partly open, and red under skin of belly - not thighs. Another frog had a cloudy right eye. A couple of days later, the cloudy eye was a big bulge! I removed him to the hospital tank, and gave him salt water baths twice daily, which have helped massively - it is now almost gone, although I think he is now blind in that eye as it is marbled, although he became poorly yesterday, and I fear he won't last the night. He has gone very pale, and won't eat or move, and he was one of the most active and friendly of them. Another frog had reddened thighs, so I put him in a different tank on damp kitchen roll, and he was much better in a few days, although now he has golden/pink skin that is stretched so tight on him and dry that it looks like it will burst, and he was also very bolshy but today he is quiet. The last few frogs to die have either faded over several days despite all efforts, or been healthy to the very last and their death was a total shock. Apart from going quiet and lethargic, not eating, and sloughing skin, there haven't been many distinctive symptoms. The pinkish tinge to the skin suggests internal bleeding I guess, together with red veins close to the surface of the skin? There has been some bloating, despite using spring water and changing it regularly. I really don't know what to do. I doubt 2 of these remaining 6 with last the night, and the 2 pink ones seem very unhappy. The one with a massively swollen right leg isn't too great either. Only one seems still active but not eating. Any advice? Happy to send pics if you can tell me how. Thanks again

[Truffs1178]

Ok first of all you have just got the frog forum record for longest post.

I think one of the main problems was the water. It should have been changed daily or every two days. They need very clean water.

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Jack. Sorry for the length of that post! It has been a long time of looking after these little guys. I have changed the water in the feeding bowl ponds twice daily, and they didn't use the main "pond" as much, but the filter kept it pretty clean, when I changed it I stirred around to try and get bits of poo and dead crickets the filter didn't get. But surely common frogs live in dirty stagnant ponds and muddy puddles? I thought doing a 25% water change every week to 10 days would have been sufficient, and was more than I did for the fish I used to keep years ago. Also, keeping them in the hospital tanks, changing their water every day for the past few weeks, they have still continued to deteriorate and die.

[Truffs1178]

A long post is a good thing, full of the details. I'm not quite sure why they are all dying. I think you'd better answer the trouble in the enclosure questions as well but I don't think they will be much help either looking at all you have written. Lets see if Carlos has anything to say.

[Lousfrogs]

Thanks for that Jack. I would be interested in any advice. By some miracle, all 6 are still alive this morning. The active small one still seems happy, other sitting around quietly, most with head up except the one with the ulcer on his eye was low to the ground and bunched up, and the one with the very plastic-y skin was lying down with his legs bunched in. I think one of the pink-y ones might have had a seizure as he was shaking for about 10 seconds, but then it stopped and his body didn't move from the spot. Gave them a salt bath while I cleaned the hospital tank - all perked up except the plastic-y one, and the one with the ulcer on his eye only a little, but may seem a little bit brighter than yesterday. The other frog still has a massive right thigh. All but one of the frogs is shedding its skin. The plastic-y one still seems to be shedding the same skin from yesterday, which seems to have stopped shedding around his head - should I try to carefully pull it off? The one with the ulcer on his eye (which hasn't changed today or yesterday) is a pale green, the others are a mid green instead of their usual dark green. Under torch light, the plastic-y one has a grey/white-green tinge to the skin on the back of his head and back - possibly a fungal infection? Should I treat with malachite green?

[flybyferns]

Have you considered repeating the lamisil treatment and separating each little frog into it's own container.
Clean each container ... everyday. Find a sure fire way to never mix-up the containers.
If they are to be released----They need to be healthy. Releasing a sick frog is disastrous !
In fact, you might get expert advice on this .

RAL - Test : Reptile ( perhaps you could email them and get information on similar businesses in the UK ?)

FDR Inc. The Australian Diseases - Chytrid Fungus Treatment Techniques

information:
The 2011 UK Chytrid Survey


You have worked so hard so sorry. You took on a massive task.

Keeping captive bred frogs ( especially ) darts is easy.
Your responsibility is to simply learn what they need............. to keep them happy and healthy.
My goodness.......after what you have been through........it sure seems as though YOU can do that !

[Lousfrogs]

Hello Lynn, Thank you for your kind message and I have considered re-doing the Lamisil treatment, so that will be my next plan of action. I think individual containers could be good too, as the 3 that are still doing OK include the pink one that may or may not have had red leg and anything connected to it. The one small frog is really happy and active, bouncing around the hospital tank like crazy, and he and the other 2 are eating crickets again. The plastic-y frog is definitely on his last legs, and his back legs keep twitching. The sides of his belly seem to be filled with clear fluid - you can see through the skin to the bottom! The frog with he ulcer on its eye is still very quiet but I think may be getting a tiny bit better. The one with the massively swollen right leg is still very swollen, and a few days ago he was happy with it, still trying to eat the crickets, but now he is very unhappy and can't move far to catch a cricket. I really don't know what to do for him, and am worried the Lamisil could either make it better or make it worse. Has anyone ever used malachite green with frog fungal infections? Just wondering if that is another option... I have actually become completely obsessed with frogs of all kinds since keeping them, and particularly intrigued into the issues of diseases such as ranavirus and chytrid that are just blazing through populations and it seems to be a case of "see who survives". I wish I could do more. I hadn't planned to release any of these frogs, either keep them in the 4 foot tank or put them in a pond in our garden, which is completely walled so they wouldn't have gotten out to affect a surrounding population. Sadly, I am not sure anyone of them will reach their 1st birthday, let alone adulthood. Thank you also for the encouragement to get another frog after this is over. I am going to take my time researching the dart and pacman breeds, although I fell in love with the white footed trilling frog, although I am not sure it is sold as a pet. Thanks again, and if anyone is interested, I have now taken some photos of the affected frogs, and would love to know if I can load them somewhere on this site to get a second opinion? Thanks

[Mentat]

OK, from reading your second post appears to me the froglets could have suffered from Toxin Out Syndrome (TOS) due to "weekly to 10 days 25% water changes." Normally recommend changing at least 25% of water daily when there is no cycled filter in use. Then came the high temps and if the frogspawn had been exposed to Chytrid; it could have triggered the first issues with it. Did you record how hot it got in enclosure?

From there it appears you stopped the pathogen; but then, other issues have been surfacing because some frogs are relapsing (excessive shedding, etc.), and others are developing bacterial issues (eye infection and possible Red Leg). It is very possible TOS did internal organ damage (edema) and their immune system is very compromised.

So now only thing left is to try and save the remaining frogs. Recommend you follow Lynn's advice and complete the Lamasil treatment. Also, make sure the Spring Water is real spring without additives that could be bad for frogs (chloramines). Then see if you can get some Melafix and Pimafix in aquarium shop. If you can find them, let me know here and we will discuss a follow on treatment. Those two are natural based meds and will be milder than using chemical treatments like MG or antibiotics. Good luck !

[Lousfrogs]

Thanks for replying Carlos. I feel awful, I didn't realise I needed to change the main water so often. Some of the frogs didn't even use it, but used the feeding bowl ponds, which I replaced the water twice daily. The spring water I use doesn't contain any additives, and I guess I have to trust it actually came from the spring they claim it did, as with all spring water. At its hottest, it reached 30degC in the tank. I put the spring water in the fridge and used it when I did the water changes, getting all the frogs to go in there to cool down, although they were often in the feeding bowl ponds. The plastic looking frog passed in the night, I took some photos yesterday, when shining a torch down on him, his sides were filled with a clear fluid. The 3 healthier ones still seem OK, especially the small one. The one with the ulcer on his eye seems a tiny bit better, but is refusing to eat, and the one with the swollen leg is still very swollen (one photo I took showed 2 small yellow patches on the underside of the swollen thigh, and the thigh is very red, he has become very unhappy and now also refuses to eat. They are only 2-3cm in size, so I can't imagine how I could ever force feed them. I can get both Melafix and Pimafix from my local pet store, so have bought both and will await your instructions. Both are by API and the Melafix is 240ml and the Pimafix is 118ml. I will also get the Lamisil at the shops this evening, but won't start any treatment until I hear from you. I have bathed them in a saline solution twice a day for the past few days - should I continue that too? The pictures show 1. the frog with the very swollen right leg and 2. the frog that I thought had red leg, he no longer has red thighs but his skin has remained pinkish, almost copper gold in some lights, and veins are visible beneath his skin. You can see how different he is to the other 2. He is one of the most active frogs though.

[Mentat]

OK, Melafix is a mild natural bactericide and Pimafix is a mild fungicide with some effect against internal bacteria. Also, Pimafix will kill the white little Planaria worms that inhabit many tanks (live of detritus); so if you see some white little things floating around do not worry.

Both medications can be used together, so what you will do is premix like a gallon of it in dechlorinated water according to label instructions. Then use that medicating solution in pond area and/or frog's baths. Once mixed you can store solution in a dark place. You will replace it 100% daily and treat for 7 days. If a frog is to weak or does not visit the medicated solution; gently place it on it (level to it's chin is fine) and keep frog there for around 20 minutes ea. day.

Le us know how things go and hopefully frogs will improve some. Have no idea of any possible interaction/interference with the Lamasil treatment; so would complete that before doing the Melafix/Pimafix bath. Hope the frogs do recover, but if internal organs have been damaged, we can't repair that. Good luck !

[Lousfrogs]

That's great, thanks. I have now put each frog into its own little hospital tank, which I clean twice a day, so I will give each a bath in the solution for 20 mins every day whilst I clean their little tanks. I really hope it works too, as I have really fallen in love with the little guys, and they each have their own characters. I was wondering if the frog with the swollen leg had maybe been bitten by a black cricket? I read somewhere they are more vicious, and they are always bigger than the brown ones. In which case, should I maybe do the Melafix/Pimafix first, especially for him, as he may have a bacterial infection in his leg, and the Lamisil wouldn't help that?

[Lousfrogs]

Unfortunately, frog with the swollen right leg didn't make it through that night. There was a little red mark on his swollen thigh - could this have been a black cricket? I think I read somewhere they can bite more than brown ones, but I thought I was giving the frogs some variety in their food... Day 4 of the melafix/pimafix bath now.... The 3 healthier frogs are still doing well, the one is still pink coloured but the smaller one doesn't seem to have the problem with his eyes being half pulled into his head anymore. The frog with the ulcer on its eye is still hanging in there, she is feisty when I move her to the baths etc but doesn't move the rest of the time. She hates being in the hospital tank on tissue paper, and bunches herself up, and refuses to eat. She prefers it in a 1/2 cm of water, but still refuses to eat. She is so emaciated now, I really do not know what to do. I have tried half drowning crickets for her so she doesn't have to chase them, even putting them on the end of her nose, and she refuses. I tried her with a calci worm (they don't seem to be able to digest them but they seem to love them) but still nothing. She is barely 2cm, so it is impossible to contemplate force feeding her. What should I do?! I really can't bear to lose her after everything... Any ideas?

[Mentat]

Would not use black or different crickets other than regular brown feeders. Some species are aggressive and have been known to attack reptiles and amphibians. Rather than calciworms suggest using pieces of night crawlers (cut from pointy end) dusted in Fluker's Repta Boost.

If frogs underwent a second Lamasil treatment and do not respond to the Melafix/Pimafix treatment; only thing can think of is a trip to a veterinary with experience in reptiles/amphibians. Melafix/Pimafix are kind of slow acting; but you should see daily improvements albeit small. Being froglets they are quite delicate and if their organs have suffered damage it's impossible to help fix. I'm very sorry for the death of swollen leg frog and status of skinny one with bad eye .

[Lousfrogs]

Thank you for taking the time Carlos. I know it is down to them now, and she will need to decide to eat or not I guess. I can't find night crawlers on any of the livefood websites I usually use, so I will have to look again for those (do they possibly have another name?), but I have found and ordered the Repta Boost and that looks great! I didn't even know these things existed, and I posted on a couple other forums, but nobody even replied to me, I guess because they were common frogs, not exotics, but I feel the combination of these things could save these frogs, especially the 3 healthier ones. I have learnt a lot (even un-useful things like frogs don't digest cricket heads!) and when the time comes, I feel more confident with an exotic. I will keep to the brown crickets from now on. Is it OK to just release the calci worms in a local field, or should I dispose of them somehow?

[Mentat]

Think your best bet would be to look for European Night crawlers at bait shops; but ensure they are free of chemicals like dyes. Might also search for earthworms but be aware that red wrigglers are foul tasting and frogs won't like them and probably reject all worms later.

Would not release calci worms on a local field; freeze container with them and dispose in trash.

[Lousfrogs]

Ok great thanks, will do that. Somehow, the skinny one with the ulcer on her eye is still alive! She still hasn't eaten anything. I notice that she has a yellow area in the area where her thigh meets her body, and also where her arm meets her body. It looks like a yellow powder, like pollen, and doesn't come off in the baths. Another frog now has it in the area between his thighs and body. Any ideas what it might be? One of them had a poo with mucus in too, if that is a sign of anything....?