wild animals vs pet store feeders, are they both safe for pixies to eat?

[mattfish]

Is a wild animal really more risky to feed your pixie than a petstore bought feeder animal? My answer, slightly but not by much.
If the wild animal (bird,frog,snake,worms,bugs,fish) looks healthy before it died, the risk is about the same as a store bought rat of mouse. But if the wild animal is sickly before its death then it is a bigger risk than a store bought feeder.
I like breaking my frogs diet up so if i can get a different animal to feed my frog, i examine it and then deep freeze it for a week. But some wont touch a wild animal as a feeder for there frog.



what do you guys think?

[Truffs1178]

Pet store bought is a lot safer in my opinion. Also freezing doesn't kill all diseases. It can put them into a state of dormancy but then as soon as you defrost the food they multiply again.

[mattfish]

Jack,
are you saying that Petstore feeders are perfectly safe?

[Truffs1178]

Jack,
are you saying that Petstore feeders are perfectly safe?

No because it all depends on who supplies these feeders. Some people could care less but others take good care. In the wild the animals could pick up all sorts of stuff. Everyone has their own opinions though.

[mattfish]

there are rat breeders who never had a rat die from a disease or parasite? I would call a couple vets around you and ask if anyones pet snake that only fed on store bought rats ever came in and had parasites.

[Truffs1178]

Nice video. He finished that off quick. How long is he? Still risky though feeding him wild caught.

[nok1888]

I'd never feed any of my snakes wild caught because of the viruses and parasites that wild can carry. If rodents are bred for food your much safer, and even then I won't buy just anywhere. I get my stuff at a big frozen food store and know it's the best I can buy


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2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

[mattfish]

Just fed Mr. Pickles a fish and put it on youtube "African bullfrog eats a fish" this fish was bought and i guarantee it came from the wild or some outside lake. You can see how fast he nails it even though i had just taken him out of his cage. a healthy pixie dont care if he is handled before he eats he just wants to eat. AWESOME!!!

[NialR35]

Just fed Mr. Pickles a fish and put it on youtube "African bullfrog eats a fish" this fish was bought and i guarantee it came from the wild or some outside lake. You can see how fast he nails it even though i had just taken him out of his cage. a healthy pixie dont care if he is handled before he eats he just wants to eat. AWESOME!!!

Reading your answers from your other post it says that you use fish as a staple diet for your pyxie and you only dust supplements every couple of months whenever you feed crickets? Oh god....

These frogs can live up to 15-20 years in captivity with the proper care and you only had your frog for a little over a year...Are you sure you want to keep doing these things?

[GrifTheGreat]

I'm glad Jeff replied to this because quite frankly I'm tired of repeating myself.

I've stated the risks of feeding WC prey to members frogs so many times that you can actually do a search on the forum and find not only my posts, but a few other's as well.

There is a small benefit to WC prey, but the fact of the matter is that the benefit does not outweigh the risks plain and simple.

[mattfish]

You said "Oh god" are you impressed? (:
I think Mr. Pickels will redeffine age limits. 20 years is nothing for well ballanced dieted animals. Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health. everyone knows that! The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet. ever take fish oil pills? It does make a difference.

[NialR35]

You said "Oh god" are you impressed? (:
I think Mr. Pickels will redeffine age limits. 20 years is nothing for well ballanced dieted animals. Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health. everyone knows that! The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet. ever take fish oil pills? It does make a difference.

[Truffs1178]

Nial where did your posts go? I saw you wrote a lot of info and now it's not showing up. Just a horse being hit.

[JeffreH]

the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix. Big deal. Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source.

Most of us try to prevent ever having to see a vet by erring on the side of caution with our feeders. And I've had a "qualified herp vet" fail to recognize the difference between a pinworm egg and a coccidea cyst, so you should not rely on a vet as a crutch. Plus, most of us do not have the privilege of having a good herp vet nearby... it is a rarity to have one in an adjacent city. We are keeping our pets in a captive environment; it out responsibility to keep them as comfortable as possible. There is no need to "build immunities" when they are never going to be subjected to anything in the outside world that will elicit problems.

For example: When I went to the Peruvian Rainforest, I wore long pants and long-sleeved shirts to prevent being bitten by mosquitoes, black flies, and sand flies; all of which vector serious human diseases. I did this because I was only staying there for two weeks, and there was no need for me to go through the pain and suffering of building immunity to their bites as I will never be encountering these diseases again back in my home in Ohio.

Our guide on the other hand, who lived in the forest for 8 years, had to take a different approach. The Matsiguanka tribe encouraged him to be tied to a tree at night, naked, allowing him to be bitten by everything in the forest. He suffered a severe fever, hallucinations, seizures, and extreme discomfort for two weeks. But now, he can walk in the forest barefoot, with shorts and no shirt and he no longer reacts to the bites of these insects.

My point is - you do not need to play antibody-building experimentation with a captive pet who should never be encountering the pathogens in the first place. You are the only one introducing them to him.

Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health. everyone knows that! The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet.

Would you like to cite the literature form which you obtained this information? Because both of these statements are wildly inaccurate (especially considering most frogs are insectivore). You should not state your own opinions as fact... I thought you said something about having an actual scientific debate earlier?

There is one thing I can agree with you on, and that is that a varied diet is key to the well-being of most any organism (aside from specialists). We should all aim to provide as must variety in our pet's diet as possible, but this can be accomplished with the variety of food items available in the captive-feeder trade as well: silkworms, captive-reared hornworms, waxworms, earthworms, mealworms, Zophobas, solider fly larvae, crickets, locusts, springtails, cultured flies, and numerous different species of cockroach are all commonly cultured in the pet trade and provide us with opportunities to provide out pet's with a varied diet. I am even okay with feeding certain arthopods collected from "safe" areas that are known to have no been sprayed with chemicals... but one should be selective and cautious about this. Feeding gastropods, fish and birds from the wild is just downright risky... these species are all notorious carriers of pathogens. Fish often carry fluke worms and specific protozoans, and gastropods are known to vector parasites that specifically attack amphibians. I typically only collect a very specific set of insects from a very specific location if I ever feel so inclined.

[mattfish]

Jeff,
Thank you for giving a detailed response. About frogs eating fish, it is common sense and as a kid we used to go critter hunting and i saw frogs eat fish. In fact if we caught a frog and wanted to keep it a while we would catch small fish for it to eat, and they always did. If they would eat them while in a container with kids picking them up all the time than they probably eat a ton of them in the wild. and why wouldnt they, all these insects everyone feeds dont have bones. bones are a great form of natural calcium, suppliments are great but they can never duplicate the real things.
I have never said that wild animals are not risky i have said that petstore feeders are just as risky.
My frog has to build immunities because he is going to come into contact with many things in his long life. If i start feeding him everything i can think of now, then as he gets older the risk of him falling prey to a disease becomes less and less, kind of like your Guide.
But i do appreciate all the info, your peruvian rainforest trip sounds awesome!!!

[nok1888]

I take it your not interested in anyone's opinion unless it's someone agreeing with you.

No one says rats etc from breeders are 100% safe but they're a hell of a lot safer than wild caught, but if you refuse to see it go ahead I just hope your lucky in what you find in the wild


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2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

[JeffreH]

There is a certain amount of risk with anything you feed; be it wild-caught or captive bred. Whether or not one chooses to do a particular action depends on how they perceive the risk.

For example, some people ride motorcycles, and some people wouldn't be caught dead on one. Yet there are still others who may only ride with protective gear only, or those who choose to ride without any gear at all.

My point is: Captive-reared feeders are almost always going to be safer to feed than wild-caught. As was pointed out, freezing does little to stop most any serious pathogen... it simply initiates a dormancy state in most microbes and even in some small invertebrates (i.e. mites). The only way to truly be certain that parasites or other pathogens are eradicated is through some kind of intense chemical or high-heat treatment. We use autoclaves in the lab to prevent contamination of microbial DNA and to disinfect materials that have become contaminated (high pressure, high moist heat treatment).

A captive environment is a closed system... and I have a fairly large group of friends who are snake hobbyists that breed their own rodents in pristine conditions. It is not fair to assume that all rodents or captive bred feeders come from a grotesque background. You severely limit the types of organisms that can enter or exit your feeder breeding system in captivity.

To believe that nature does not hold as great a potential for vectoring disease shows ignorance in understanding life histories of parasitic organisms. I conduct research on parasitoids, and believe me, there are parasites and pathogens virtually everywhere in your backyard. Are these all capable of eliciting a disease in a frog? Probably not. But the odds of happening across some nasty fungus, parasites, or microbial pathogen is substantially higher when you enter the real-world where parasitic organisms are entirely dominant. Feed at your own risk, and also understand that feeders who are capable of traveling any distance can also come into contact with various chemical -cides, etc.

[mattfish]

that is very detailed and i see you take this very seriously. that is why i respect you guys! you are not in this forum for money but because you all care about something. i wish more people would be this way! I also like holding an intelligent conversation with you all because most people know almost nothing about frogs exept they ribit and jump and eat flies. so that is why i take time to share info with all of you.
The main reason why i am broadening my frogs diet it to expand him imunities. Just because there are potental plagues everywhere on this planet doesnt mean everyone will get them. Health has a big part to play against any sickness. I also believe that a diverse diet is necessary for top health. It may be a tiny risk to feed him a healthy wild animal but he is in peek condition now because i do. Plus i have started him out early in life on this stuff so he can adapt. And life always has a way of adapting to anything if its done early enough. I think you guys should stop looking at how aweful this may decome and start thinking of the potential benefits this could turn into.

[mattfish]

I take it your not interested in anyone's opinion unless it's someone agreeing with you.



-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

It seems to me to be the other way around. I have a way that works and people are saying it cant be done. If you read more of my posts you will find logic behind my thoughts. the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix. Big deal. Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source. Nothing is 100%safe NOTHING.

[Lija]

It seems to me to be the other way around. I have a way that works and people are saying it cant be done. If you read more of my posts you will find logic behind my thoughts. the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix. Big deal. Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source. Nothing is 100%safe NOTHING.

I'm getting annoyed....... A lot....... Matt, any trained vet can and will fix anything? ..... It is very much obvious that you have no medical or vet knowledge of any sorts, no doctor human or veterinarian can fix everything, there are zoonotic decreases that frog can have and you can get infected as well, there are bunch of problems that might cause you to euthanize one frog or even your whole collection.... frankly I'm not sure if there is anything to discuss. Your choice to put or not your frog is possible danger....it is a big deal and it is serious.
Sorry I don't want to offend you but having myself deal with zoonotic problem right now it makes me plain mad how you underestimate a danger you might put yourself and your frog in.
It is the worst idea possible to get frog (anyone) get exposed to something in order to get immunity. It doesn't work this way especially not in a captive environment.