Hello, i would like to read what you think...

[Yak]

Hello
I went to check on my frogs this morning, just to find my red eye tree
frog belly up in her terrarium. I bought her on august 25 from a so-called
reputable reptile store.
I had three, one grey tree frog, one green tree frog
and the late red eye tree frog. All bought at different places.
Well I called
the store and spoke to an employee. She asked me the general questions,
regarding diet, temperatures and any noticeable signs of strange behavior.
I
explained that I noticed she was sleeping during the day from day one, but being
that they are nocturnal creatures, and did check on them in the middle of the
night and she was awake, I found it to be natural. I was offering small
crickets; she didn’t eat in front of me.
I was planning a visit to the vets
this Friday. But she jumped ahead of me.
The store where I bought the frog
“conveniently” said to me they have a policy against chameleons and frogs, where
they don’t guarantee due to the risk.
The frogs apparently came from
Nicaragua and were WC; this was not explained to me.
I consider myself a
reasonable guy and expected an offer to replace the deceased, but instead I was
declined, I ask for management and instead they offered me a “discount” for a
future purchase.
What do you think?

[Hypnotic]

I think you should call back and DEMAND to speak to management, and explain the exact behaviour of the person on the phone, while also explaining exactly what happend to your frog.
If management still brushes you off with the "no guaranteee policy", write them a couple of nice reviews on several sites, also be sure to drop this over the phone if your conversation leads to a dead end, the potential loss of more customers doesn't weigh up to a frog, and most management people know this.
I assume you don't frequent this store?

[Yak]

I think you should call back and DEMAND to speak to management, and explain the exact behaviour of the person on the phone, while also explaining exactly what happend to your frog.
If management still brushes you off with the "no guaranteee policy", write them a couple of nice reviews on several sites, also be sure to drop this over the phone if your conversation leads to a dead end, the potential loss of more customers doesn't weigh up to a frog, and most management people know this.
I assume you don't frequent this store?

Hello Hypnotic
Thank you for your fast response. I intend to go over in person tomorrow afternoon. What bothers me most, is that there is a different store within five minutes, who had a frog five dollars less expensive (not that is a whole lot of money but it’s the principle), however based on a conversation I had with someone at a previous show, I thought they were more “reputable” or should I say “responsible”.
I have chameleons which I think require more attention, so I know my husbandry is not the real issue. The other two frogs or any other animal to that effect immediately go for the food. This frog was too passive in my opinion from day one. Obviously I was giving it a chance to develop in her brand new environment.
My seven year old boy was crying, and that can penetrate any human being to see your child crying over a dead pet, especially since he had been asking for months, went over to a couple of shows but didn’t have any. Except this vendor who told me that they had some back at their store, but none at the show.
I believe I cover all my bases, and it would be odd if all my pets are healthy and well taken care of and I would neglect my son’s favorite. We never handle it because it was so fragile and small that we were afraid it would jump or hurt itself.
And before I forget: I found it extremely unpleasant from the store when they sold it to me IN A PLASTIC BAG. WHEN I questioned it, the salesperson told me it was fine. I told him “I live about 45 minutes away plus traffic”, he said just blow air from time to time. Anyway, I just thought I would share that, other frogs I bought they come in plastic bins with proper ventilation. In response to your question I don't frequent the store, (they are a bit far from me) but I've bought other animals from there at shows, including a chameleon. From the business stand point you're right, (I am not the type to engage in long debates and ultimately if I felt in any way responsible I certainly wouldn't be asking for a replacement). Silly they prefer to lose a customer. Them saying come in will give you a discount is like saying we still want more money from you. Again, thank you so much for your attention, I appreciate your comments. Regards

[Hypnotic]

Wow, in a plastic bag... They deserve a bad review. I bet if you frequented the place, you would have gotten better treatment, as low as that might sound, I've experienced it.
I frequented a store around here a while back, must have spent a total of 3K there in a few months, so they loved me. When my Avicularia avicularia died after 5 months of purchasing it, I mentioned it and they wanted to please me at any cost. But I turned that down, saying it ate well, shedded well, but just died. And in all fairness, I accidently hit it with a burst of water while misting, and afterwards it became lethargic and died. So that was on my end.
Did you quarantine the frog? I honestly would be concerned if an animal past away so fast in a new tank, mainly for the wellbeing of your other frogs.
Yes, you do indeed sound like you did your homework. When buying wild caught, this sort of thing can happen, even when buying captive bred. But I firmly believe the store is responsible for this and should issue a replacement or even a refund. If I were you, I would not take my chances with a replacement after that kind of service and having an animal die on you so fast.
Seriously, I still can't believe you were told to blow air in it from time to time. They should have sold it in a propper bin, even if it was a cricket or locust bin.(that's what they are usually sold in anyway), I've bought alot of pets before and I've sold a few before, and I've never recieved or offerd a plastic bag. That is simply stupid.

Edit: You can bet that you blowing into the bag caused the animal a ton of stress, I'm not sure if you did it but even if you did, it's not on your end, they told you too.

[flybyferns]

Hello
I went to check on my frogs this morning, just to find my red eye tree
frog belly up in her terrarium. I bought her on august 25 from a so-called
reputable reptile store.
I had three, one grey tree frog, one green tree frog
and the late red eye tree frog. All bought at different places.
Well I called
the store and spoke to an employee. She asked me the general questions,
regarding diet, temperatures and any noticeable signs of strange behavior.
I
explained that I noticed she was sleeping during the day from day one, but being
that they are nocturnal creatures, and did check on them in the middle of the
night and she was awake, I found it to be natural. I was offering small
crickets; she didn’t eat in front of me.
I was planning a visit to the vets
this Friday. But she jumped ahead of me.
The store where I bought the frog
“conveniently” said to me they have a policy against chameleons and frogs, where
they don’t guarantee due to the risk.
The frogs apparently came from
Nicaragua and were WC; this was not explained to me.
I consider myself a
reasonable guy and expected an offer to replace the deceased, but instead I was
declined, I ask for management and instead they offered me a “discount” for a
future purchase.
What do you think?

I am so, so sorry you lost your red eye. That's so sad.
It's a terrible thing to have to go through

I want to pass along the best possible advise....moving forward
I believe this is more about what to do now then wonder if you should be given a credit.

May I
1) I believe it is the responsibility of the person buying the pet to ask all of these questions prior to the purchase.
2)Preparation ahead of time for the purchase of a frog, is critical.

This includes the knowledge of the frog being WC.
They should have told you that the red eye was wild caught; because:
- Wild caught frogs have more difficulty acclimating - this can take months.
-they ALWAYS need to have fecal samples done by a vet as they typically have parasites
-when purchased they are extremely stressed

ALL newly acquired frogs need to be but into separate quarantine tanks for a minimum of 30 days.
I would do this - now - as there is a chance there is some kind of contamination transferred to the others
If they are housed together. Different species should not be mixed.
May I recommend that you get a fecal sample tested on both of your remaining frogs.
Make sure the vet knows you had a "WC" red eye - even if they were not in the same tank
Separate them ( forever) if they have been housed together.

The tank the red eye tree frog was in needs to be sterilized. A FF search will find you directions on how to do this.
I would use the bleach method. Rinse, rinse, and rinse again with de-chlorinatored water.
Throw away, sterilize or bake all decorations. Do not re-use any substrate.

Tree frogs require having, some basic supplies on had at all times.
Quarantine /hospital set up
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html
medication/supplies
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-supplies.html

Again, I'm so sorry for you loss.
Please let us know if you need any additional help for your 2 babies
Lynn

[Mentat]

Hello
I went to check on my frogs this morning, just to find my red eye tree
frog belly up in her terrarium. I bought her on august 25 from a so-called
reputable reptile store.
I had three, one grey tree frog, one green tree frog
and the late red eye tree frog. All bought at different places....

Welcome to FF and sorry for your frog's death . Do you keep all your frogs in the same enclosure or did Red-Eye was alone? If together and the Red-Eyed was carrying pathogens; the other frogs and enclosure were exposed to it. Also, if the Red-Eyed was WC; the chances it was carrying parasites are lot bigger than if CBB.

IMO, the main concern now is to protect your other frogs and/or prepare for a future Red-Eyed with proper quarantine period, etc. If you want to check that your enclosure did not contribute to your frog demise, please answer below questions and we will try to help. Keeping different frog species together is very challenging and usually ends bad. Good luck !

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[Yak]

Thank you for your advice, I am taking all things into consideration. Regards,

[Yak]

Hello, thank you for your response. The frogs were separate in two tanks, one 20 gal tank houses the two gray/green tree frog and the red eye was in her own, with brand new substrate and everything. I will go over the information... In the mean time I will try to contact the store one more time, and see what they said. Either way I can't bring her back nor erase the memory from my son's mind. thanks and all advise and opinions are welcomed.

[Yak]

1. Size of enclosure--------------------------------------------10 gal glass tank
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences-------itself
3. Humidity---------------------------------------------------------- 50%
4. Temperature----- low 70's - high 85's
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish - filtered water from filter
6. Materials used for substrate----------------eco earth
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. --- ocean treated trees, coconut hub, small umbrella plant live
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. ----- days in advance, everything new, and washed with downy soft soapy water
8. Main food source ---- mainly crickets and silk worm, small tiny dubias
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) calcium with d3 and without d3 at least three times a week.
10. Lighting ---- one heat lamp 65w
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure ---- two different lamps one night and one day
12. When is the last time he/she ate --- two days before she passed
13. Have you found poop lately ----- yes and looked normal, three days before
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog ---- age unknown but I was told she was a "baby"
16. How long have you owned him/her -- 9 days
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred ---- wild caught
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled--------------------------only to transfer to her new cage on day one
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area------------------ cero traffic what soever they are in a garage/den area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) --- water changes daily, mist twice a day with room temperature water. I didn't get to clean her cage as I do cleaning every other week. In addition to the frogs I also have birds, chameleons and dogs all in separate areas.

[Mentat]

Please read this care sheet; a high of 85F is above their recommended range. Did note couple issues on your enclosure. First, filtered tap water still has to be treated with a de-chlorinator. Also, next time you prepare their substrate, use de-chlorinated water too. Recommend you throw away substrate exposed to dead frog and sterilize everything that came into contact with frog.

Second is; using any soup to wash decor or enclosure is not good. Any traces of it could leach out and affect your frogs since they take water through their skin. A mild (1 cup per gallon) solution of bleach is a better cleaner and can be neutralized by a good rinse followed by dipping or wiping items or tank in a concentrated (at least 4X strong) de-chlorinator solution. Wood pieces can be baked and plastic items can be dumped in bleach solution or boiled for 10 minutes. Good luck !

[N3XU5]

Hello
I went to check on my frogs this morning, just to find my red eye tree
frog belly up in her terrarium. I bought her on august 25 from a so-called
reputable reptile store.
I had three, one grey tree frog, one green tree frog
and the late red eye tree frog. All bought at different places.
Well I called
the store and spoke to an employee. She asked me the general questions,
regarding diet, temperatures and any noticeable signs of strange behavior.
I
explained that I noticed she was sleeping during the day from day one, but being
that they are nocturnal creatures, and did check on them in the middle of the
night and she was awake, I found it to be natural. I was offering small
crickets; she didn’t eat in front of me.
I was planning a visit to the vets
this Friday. But she jumped ahead of me.
The store where I bought the frog
“conveniently” said to me they have a policy against chameleons and frogs, where
they don’t guarantee due to the risk.
The frogs apparently came from
Nicaragua and were WC; this was not explained to me.
I consider myself a
reasonable guy and expected an offer to replace the deceased, but instead I was
declined, I ask for management and instead they offered me a “discount” for a
future purchase.
What do you think?

I think you shouldn't worry about it. Just don't buy from them again.

[Yak]

Please read this care sheet; a high of 85F is above their recommended range. Did note couple issues on your enclosure. First, filtered tap water still has to be treated with a de-chlorinator. Also, next time you prepare their substrate, use de-chlorinated water too. Recommend you throw away substrate exposed to dead frog and sterilize everything that came into contact with frog.

Second is; using any soup to wash decor or enclosure is not good. Any traces of it could leach out and affect your frogs since they take water through their skin. A mild (1 cup per gallon) solution of bleach is a better cleaner and can be neutralized by a good rinse followed by dipping or wiping items or tank in a concentrated (at least 4X strong) de-chlorinator solution. Wood pieces can be baked and plastic items can be dumped in bleach solution or boiled for 10 minutes. Good luck !

hello, I noticed your temperatures were a little higher than the care sheet you recommended and the care sheet they gave me...

Family	Hylidae (Treefrogs)
Subfamily	Phyllomedusinae (Leaf & Monkey Frogs)
Origin	Central America (Southern Mexico to Panama)
Adult Snout-to-Vent Length	Male: 50 - 55 mm (1.96 - 2.16 inches); Female: 65 - 70 mm (2.55 - 2.75 inches)
Life span	4-10 years in captivity
Captive Difficulty	Intermediate
Breeding Difficulty	Intermediate
Activity	Strictly nocturnal
Temperature	Day: 26-28 °C (78-82 °F); Night: 22-24 °C (71-75 °F)
Food	Crickets, moths, and other active insects

[Mentat]

hello, I noticed your temperatures were a little higher than the care sheet you recommended and the care sheet they gave me...

Family	Hylidae (Treefrogs)
Subfamily	Phyllomedusinae (Leaf & Monkey Frogs)
Origin	Central America (Southern Mexico to Panama)
Adult Snout-to-Vent Length	Male: 50 - 55 mm (1.96 - 2.16 inches); Female: 65 - 70 mm (2.55 - 2.75 inches)
Life span	4-10 years in captivity
Captive Difficulty	Intermediate
Breeding Difficulty	Intermediate
Activity	Strictly nocturnal
Temperature	Day: 26-28 °C (78-82 °F); Night: 22-24 °C (71-75 °F)
Food	Crickets, moths, and other active insects

Sorry you got confused by my writing . The 85F I quoted came from your answers to questionnaire: "4. Temperature----- low 70's - high 85's." A high of 85F is outside the daily temp range recommended in the forum's care sheet. If you got other temperature parameters for Red-Eyes and want to go with those, that is OK and your choice. Good luck !

[Yak]

Sorry you got confused by my writing . The 85F I quoted came from your answers to questionnaire: "4. Temperature----- low 70's - high 85's." A high of 85F is outside the daily temp range recommended in the forum's care sheet. If you got other temperature parameters for Red-Eyes and want to go with those, that is OK and your choice. Good luck !

Maybe the geographical area has a lot to do with it, in California the area that we live is around 82, outside, the frog never got to the high point she stayed around the middle the whole time which I gauged around 78 degrees. I will follow your advice from now on

[Psychotic]

Sorry this happened to you. I though I would chime in to say that next time it would be a good idea to know the TOS of any place you intend to shop from. I mainly do online shopping so it is easy to find out. However with a store unless they have a website you should be able to ask.

The reason this is important is because many places do not have any guarantee on Wild Caught animals beyond a live arrival guarantee in the case of animals that have been shipped to you.

Wild Caught animals go though a lot of stress in order to get to the suppliers (pet shop). Even though a frog can live fine in the wild with parasites, added stress reduces their immune systems and makes it easier for parasites to overload their systems. Also they could have other diseases such as Chytrid.

If they have no guarantee then there isn't much you can do. It's up to use the buyer to find out what the terms and guarantees are.

However I do not think what they did was right. It should have been specified that the animal in question was Wild Caught. Also putting it in a plastic bag is not acceptable! If it was in a plastic bag with air in it like pet shops usually put fish or crickets in, it would have air for a short period of time. But still don't think it is acceptable. Also the advice of blowing in the bag!? Do they not know that we humans exhale carbon dioxide not oxygen?

[Yak]

Hi everyone,
I just thought I’d give you an update on the red-eye-tree-frog deal.
I sent an email to management, got a response the next day, pretty much sticking to their original call.
Being that in the type a person who actually read and try to learn, one thing I learn from this ordeal is that there are a lot of shady individuals at every level.
What can you buy with $35.00? Dinner? Cab fare? ½ tank of gasoline? A trip to the movies?
Honesty and dignity is free, yet it is so priceless.
This individual argues that they use plastic bags for transport for the safety of the frog. But I guess he forgot they said the frog came from Nicaragua. So did it come in a plastic bag from Central America to the USA? He ignored the carbon dioxide altogether and added frogs can live for days in a single bag.
He also wrote, he doesn’t get any credit back from his suppliers on his animals, yet the other employee told me they just don’t guarantee frogs and chameleons. So if I would have bought a corn snake they would have back it up?
Now I’ve read every single post and take heed. For the sake of time, and avoid dealing with the new age type merchants, I will just simply drop it. Let them have their cake and eat it too. I won’t spend another dollar and support their business.