M. Ebenaui or M. Betsileo?

[Geo]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

My own previous research confirmed a lot of what you shared here although there didn't seem to be a clear cut specific reference right across the board in the frog hobbyist community unless you are dealing with certain specific experienced breeders. It seemed that some people use it depending on what their own preferences are rather than any scientific related zoological cataloging. The confusion stems from which of the two terms people prefer to use it seems although usage should be based off the locale factor at the very least as already stated. I also noticed that a larger majority of references to M.E. refer to specimens typically witout the helix like pattern on the back while M.B. almost always seems to refer to the helix patterned specimens. Then there is the matter of slight color differences/morphs, ie brown - orange, bronze, yellowish brown, etc.

I have two WC specimens that I rescued from a local pet store a little under a year ago that they had cataloged as M.E. After pushing them to provide information about the specimens I found out that they were imported by a company called Midori who I attempted to contact without any successful responses. Afterwards I was advised that the store staff was advised that these specimens were wild caught but Midori would not provide the locale from which they were obtained.

I have a trio of M.B. from Understory that I have kept separate from the Midori pair until I can clearly ascertain if they are the same species or different morphs of the same species or what have you. To the naked eye they appear the same although one set is slightly more "bronze" for lack of a better word and has a more obvious helix pattern where as the other has a weaker / broken helix pattern. But this doesn't prove anything as it is my understanding that siblings in the same clutch can sometimes have the odd subtle recessive characteristic show up that is different from the remaining kin. To some this may not be a huge deal but if I am successful in establishing a breeding colony and was to pass along the offspring to others I would want to provide accurate info as much as was possible as to the actual species designation.

[Geo]

Learnt something that I found interesting today. As per Understory Enterprises, their Mantella Betsileo breeding stock were originally purchased from Mirdo in 2004/2005 and are wild caught. My 4 U.E. Mantella Betsileo's are then F-1 stock. Mirdo is the same importers who I discovered a short while ago supplies the local petstore where I got / rescued my original 2 M.B. from. Soooooo .... if Mirdo has always obtained their wild caught M.B. stock from the same region then both sets that I have are genetically compatible albeit my original two are recent WC and the ones I got from U.E are multi-generational captive bred. I have once again reached out to Mirdo to see if they can provide me with data regarding how/where they obtained their mantella livestock. Now that part of the puzzle is solved I am thinking that allowing both groups to be colonized together due to genetic compatibility will allow for offspirngs that will be identical to any found in the wild.

[Geo]

On a side note, the M.B. that I got from U.E. have broken / partial helix patterns on their back while my originals that are recent WC have full helix patterns. Could this be suggestive that the captive breeding process has altered the helix pattern genetics? If so then breeding a U.E. mantella with a recent Mirdo mantella may reintroduce the helix. is that considered hybriding? Possibly both sets, although obtained from the same importers, came either from different regions or have slightly different genetic histories. Interesting stuff to occupy myself with lol.

[deranged chipmunk]

knowing what i know about Madagascar and it's economic climate, tracking down something like where a frog was caught is impossible. the most likely scenario is that villagers captured a bunch, and sold them to a local person, who in turn stuck them in baskets and they went along the line as such until they reached the exporter. it's a very poor country and documenting things like this are not a high priority.

[Geo]

I agree Bill, it may be a dead end. I am curious enough to try and see if the data is there. The other item that is prompting me is that my U.E. mantellas are chirping and mounting which has triggered one of my Mirdo mantellas to do the same in the terrarium next to the others. There is an interesing effect that putting a group together brings out certain characteristics and drives that aren't evident when you only have a couple together. I most likely will be putting both groups together as a breeding colony since all the signs point to them being of the M.B. species. I have done some heavy alterations to the 50 gallon vivarium in anticipation of assembling the colony and hopefully see some breeding. For the past two days my basement has been filled wit chirping!

[MantellaGuy]

Well firstly, the Helix pattern you are refering to is a patterning that is quite common to a few species within the Brown Mantella Group, including the Green Mantella (M.viridis) so really the helix pattern is nothing to go by unfortunately as even M.betsileo have this marking in some form or another. However I do agree and disagree with Bill about the documentation of species being recorded, I have had no problem at all finding out my locality data for a few of the individuals I have it's just a lengthy process which took a while to even sort out but obviously not all have been recorded, they are more focused on getting the animals exported and into captivity rather than taking the time to know the localities. I do agree with it being a Dead End in the long run as it takes a hell of a lot of time to get the required information (It is awesome you are actually bothering though!! So I really admire that) but I do also feel you may be looking to much into the Patterning, don't forget that these to species are infact believed to be near on impossible to tell apart and even the best of people have not been able to do it. If you know the localitity then I think you will be fine but patterns and markings are nothing to go by, I have seen pure M.ebenaui with NO patterns upon their backs and these are confirmed individuals within a Professional Collection from the locality of Nosey Be. From my past experience, I can say there are two basic (This is looking at it very basically!) forms of Morphological differences - those that are Species specific and those that are Individual specific and the helix markings appear to be more individual specific as I have seen pure bred M.viridis with these same markings (will try and take a photo later on). I have bred my M.betsileo pairs a few times now and I have had alsorts of offspring arise from the batches, some with the helix markings and some without...

[Geo]

I was not aware that the helix pattern wasn't exclusive to the M.B. line as most of the photos that I have seen of the other Mantella species have not shown it but those photos may not be truely representative of the typical specimens found within any particular species.

Regarding the documentation - I am trying although outside of the info that Understory has kindly provided me with I can only guess as Mirdo is the key factor. They provided the local petshop here with the first specimens I got a short while back and originally supplied Understory 9 years back. Hopefully they will provide an answer to the question of location.

I felt the pattern issue is/was important as typically in any creature that consistently demonstrates an obvious and persistent visual key in their offspring it allows for accurate cataloging of where they stand on the tree of life so to speak. The inconsistency of the pattern issue, as well as inconsistency in size & habits, seems to be what is creating some confusion amongst zoologists as to determining the exact breakdown of the Mantella families. I have been reading some interesting material from Vence and Glaw that demonstrates the challenge of pinning down these little creatures to a specific model, unlike other PDFs or PDF like species who are rather clear cut as to where they belong. So far I am developing the opinion that it may be possibly that a few of these mantella families are actually the same family but with color / pattern morphs that seem to be regionally based with the periodic and random demonstration in offspring of recessive flashbacks (ie patterns have the helix pattern but 1/3 of the near born clutch don't but then later their offspring has the pattern back, etc).

I have to admit that prior to getting into the study of amphibians I had no clue there was so many interesting things to study. These little critters have expanded my appreciation of life, the natural world that we should be sharing with them, and our responsibilities as stewards of this planet.

[MantellaGuy]

Well, with some photographs upon the Internet, they seem to be chosen for being the "Best" looking individual however this may not be the entire truth and merely my own point of view. I have seen M.viridis with such patterning like I said before and my own pure bred specimens with this same patterning and like I said previous I will try and get photographs for you My M.betsileo (first pair) come from Morondava apparently which where their ancestors came from, yet they still have this marking. I shall reply again with more of my reply! So I am not ignoring the rest of what you said