One Of My Dumpy Frogs Died Today

[kahluafeeders]

I've got to be doing something wrong. The original Dumpy I bought like two weeks ago is now dead. I still hadn't been able to get it to eat and the second Dumpy hasn't eaten either. I feel terrible because I've tried everything. The cage is at 75% humidity. I had finally gotten it stabilized to that. The temperature I can't do much about at this point as the fan will only cool off so much. Last week it was averaging 90 degrees so I kept the lamp off. Now it's averaging 80 degrees. I've changed the water every day with dechlorinated water and the cage is in a low traffic area. My cats don't even know the frogs are there so I know they aren't terrorizing the frogs.

I just don't know what to do. I had been trying many different bugs but no takers. I've left bug overnight, over several nights, used tongs, plopped them right in front of the frogs. I haven't been handling the frogs at all except for when Dumpy #2 jumped from the branch and landed on my face (had to handle then).

What can I be doing that is so wrong to have a frog rather die than eat? The Pacman is doing just fine. I never see him but the bugs are disappearing so I know he's eating at least. I don't want to wake up to find my second tree frog dead as well. Can anyone tell me if there is something wrong with my setup? Am I just getting the humidity and temperature wrong? I've read dozens of care sheets on the guys, including one's listed here on the forum. I just don't know what to do... Too bad someone from here couldn't drive over and fix whatever I've got wrong. That'd be nice.

[kueluck]

Where did you get them, and have either one pooped since you've had them? Also 90 degrees is pretty hot for them, you don't want the temp over 85.

[Mentat]

I'm very sorry for your frogs death . They like day warm day temps of 85F; but 90F is too high and could have contributed to death. Keep offering crickets to survivor and if want to try force feeding (last resort thing) get some Fluker's Repta Boost.

You can also offer highly nutritious night crawlers to your Pacman (from Walmart's sport section, get the un-dyed kind). Earthworms length should be around same as frog SVL. You can cut from pointy end if required and they can also be rinsed in dechlorinated water, pat dry in paper towel, and dusted in bowl before feeding. Good luck and keep us up to day on feeding efforts .

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Gail is spot on with her questions but you might want to fill out the trouble in the enclosure section here to give us a better picture what's going on.
If there's any way possible you can move the enclosure to a cooler area like a basement that would be preferable.
Hopefully we can work out a solution and save your other baby best wishes.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

[kahluafeeders]

As I said, I can't do anything about the temperature. The air conditioner broke and my landlord hasn't fixed it. I no longer keep the lights on because of it. I do live in the basement, so that's as cool as it will be getting unfortunately.

I got them from a place called Scales N Tails, which is a local reptile shop. They're usually pretty decent and tomorrow I'm going to go up and talk with them.

1-size of enclosure: 18x18x24 ZooMed Terrarium
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?): Had two Dumpys but now only one.
3-humidity: 75% humidity, less when it gets over 90 degrees but never falling under 50%
4-temp: Also varies but is between 85-90 degrees F
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish: Dechlorinated tap
6-materials used for substrate: Eco Earth
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv: Fake vine plant, grapevine - All washed prior
8-main food source: None currently as they haven't eaten! Tried crickets, dubia, earthworms, and waxworms so far
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often ): None as of yet until they eat, then I have calcium powder without D3 (got for my turtles who live outside)
10-lighting: None as they would raise the heat even more.
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: Nothing
12-when is the last time he ate: Dead frog ate one cricket once two weeks ago (I think). The new/remaining frog hasn't eaten at all.
13-have you found poop lately: One poop a week or so ago
15-How old is the frog: not sure, young I'm guessing
16-How long have you owned him/her: Less than a month
17-Is the frog wild caught or captive bred: No idea
18- Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats: I've tried all readily available bugs with no takers
19- about how often the frog is handled: Handled once a week, usually because the remaining frog seems to think my face is the best place to be.
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area: Low traffic. Kept in my bedroom but I am gone most of the day. They have to put up with watching cats, who don't seem to know they are there.

[Mentat]

As I said, I can't do anything about the temperature. The air conditioner broke and my landlord hasn't fixed it. I no longer keep the lights on because of it. I do live in the basement, so that's as cool as it will be getting unfortunately....

Bad landlord ! Can you move enclosure to a friend or family house with AC until landlord fixes yours? Those high temps are not good to your frog's and your health too !

[helm96]

If you cannot take them to a Friends house maybe try freezing a bottle of water (or a gallon jug to increase the area of cooling) and place it against the outside of the enclosure. Even if it does not cool the enclosure it will give the WTF a cooler place to go to for some relief. Anything you can do to drop the temp without endangering the frog is highly encouraged. But above all else I agree with Carlos, see if a friend or family can watch them until AC is fixed. High temps are really bad on these little guys.

[kahluafeeders]

Unfortunately, I'm not gifted with any animal loving friends or family who wouldn't do a worse job than I all ready am.

I'll try the frozen water bottle. It won't be until tomorrow however as I'm on my way to work in about five minutes and water doesn't freeze that fast. The landlord said he was going to fix the a/c but hasn't thus far.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

I would give him a bill for the cost of the deceased frog.

[Bolisnide]

I agree with all of the above posts, everyone is giving you excellent advice.
The temp is too hot, that is plain, and *could have* attributed to the death of your first dumpy. What I've done in the past, is get a freezer ziplock bag and fill it with ice cubes then place in an area of the viv that the frog doesn't typically go to (or hang from the top, if you can). This along with a little computer fan placed atop your viv should bring the temp down. Though dumpy's are typically very hardy and able to withstand a wide range of temps, the high temps are a problem... you have got to address it. The frozen bottle of water is also a very keen idea, but if you have ice cubes and a baggy at hand, you can immediately address until the water in your bottle freezes.
My other thought is that a dumpy with no appetite is a big concern. These frogs have a vivacious appetite, so that would be a big concern.
What I would first try, is a pedialyte soak to get the nutrients and electrolytes back into your frog. This will also give him the energy he needs to eat on his own.
The ratio is 10 to 1, water to pedialyte (plain unflavored, found in the baby section of most drugstores and grocery stores). Use treated water for this mix. Soak him in the luke warm bath for about 10 minutes. I like to use a tupperware that I poked holes in (from the inside of the lid). This helps to keep the frog in the solution. But, the fact that you say he jumps on your face (LOL), says to me he has energy and may eat soon.
Repti-Boost like Carlos suggested is a very good emergency product for malnourished or dehydrated amphibians. I've used it before, and it was a life saver.
Also, I recommend using a glass bowl for your feeders, crickets specifically can not jump or climb out, and this is a great way to monitor your treefrog's eating. You can dust the crickets with the repti-boost also.
Lots of advice coming in I;m sure. My final recommendation would be to listen to everyone here, and follow the advice.
Good luck.

[Bolisnide]

meant to ask, when you did find poop, was it solid?
And can you please post a pic of the viv and the frog?

[kahluafeeders]

Just got home at 11:30pm. What a day at work! I work in a pizza place so I'm sure some of you can imagine how my day went. Lol.

I just scanned the temperature with my temp gun and it's reading 77 degrees. Thank goodness for that nice rainstorm to cool things off. At least, I think it rained where I live. I rained where I work, which is in a different city. I'll have to grab photos in the morning. I had bought a little vase for crickets and the remaining frog seemed interested at one point but didn't seem to know how to get to the crickets. He was watching them anyway. I think I'll have to angle the vase instead and find some of my extra branches to lead into it without letting the crickets get out.

I have pedialyte floating around somewhere. I keep it in my animal first aid stuff but with the move, I still haven't unpacked it. Just to clarify, I got the frogs after I moved. I'll find it in the morning as I think it's in the garage. As for the poop, it seemed solid to me, like it had been there for several hours and not soft like the Pacman's was when he went on my arm (so much for hand feeding there! I'm a perch, not a food dispenser!).

I'll also try to find that Repti-boost stuff. Perhaps Jurrasic Pets has it or can rush order it for me. Other than that, I'll be gently yelling at Scales N Tails about my problem and see if I can't eventually get a replacement or store credit after I get my current guy to eat properly.

At this point, I'm not even sure if I should be tearing down the tank and sterilizing things. These two frogs were in the same tank in the store, which is why I didn't quarantine them. They were all ready living together after all and I figured if one had something, the other probably did too.

On a side note, the remaining frog was dark when I got him and then lighted to a green. He's been that way ever since. The one that just died had been staying a dark green and then over the past week had gotten some spotting. He was really spotted yesterday on his head and this morning he was bright green like the one still living is. I wasn't worried as I had read that these guys to change their colors and often get dappling. The color on my now dead frog was flush against the skin and not raised or indented, so I thought nothing of it. I think I might have pictures of it, but I'll have to dig through my recent photo imports. I'll get them up tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for all the advice. Hopefully we can get this remaining guy to eat and thrive. Then, I'll eventually get another one if he seems "lonely". It's hard to tell with reptiles and amphibians if they do like company or if they just put up with each other. Mammals are so much easier in that way!

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

with glass bowl feeding , I found that using a small bowl 3in diameter buried level with the surface of the substrate
works the best.

[fr0g9]

I'm very sorry for your frogs death . They like day warm day temps of 85F; but 90F is too high and could have contributed to death.

They prefer it in the 80s during the day, but please stop being paranoid 90F isn't going to hurt your frog in any way.

On a side note, the remaining frog was dark when I got him and then lighted to a green. He's been that way ever since. The one that just died had been staying a dark green and then over the past week had gotten some spotting. He was really spotted yesterday on his head and this morning he was bright green like the one still living is. I wasn't worried as I had read that these guys to change their colors and often get dappling. The color on my now dead frog was flush against the skin and not raised or indented, so I thought nothing of it. I think I might have pictures of it, but I'll have to dig through my recent photo imports. I'll get them up tomorrow.

Spots appearing that weren't there when you got him are a RED FLAG!! A description of picture of the spotting would do a lot of good right now. If the frog had dark spots that look like small ulcers, or large puffy grey spots that to turn lime green spots right before death, you are looking at a fungal infection. If the spots are small white specs that usually run up the back, you are dealing with a bacterial infection. Actually based on the temperatures you are providing us, there is little to no chance it's fungal because Chytrid requires lower temps in the 70's to spread. Small white spots can also be natural, but generally speaking, specks are smaller than spots and always point to a bacterial infection.

First things first, clean that tank out and clean it good. No telling when the last time the pet store did a full cleaning and actually removed everything from the tank (I would be willing to bet NEVER). Next thing you need to do is determine what type of infection the first frog had (or if it had one), and treat the second Frog accordingly.

[Sasha]

Everyone has given good advise. I know your frog isn't eating right now but you want to get calcium WITH D3. The need the D3 to process the calcium.

[kahluafeeders]

Just to clarify, the cage is brand new with new everything. They were housed in a smaller ZooMed at the store together. Also, I do have both Calcium with D3 and without (my turtles live outside so they don't need the D3).

Here are photos of the frog that died:

[fr0g9]

Thanks for the pictures, now I can help! The light green spots are a sign of an advanced Chytrid fungus. Normally when it gets to that stage the spots are a bit bigger then that, but I think the high temps may be the reason they are smaller in this case. There is no way he caught the Chytrid virus from your setup, the temps are too high & you haven't had him long enough for it to progress that far.

For the sick frog you are going to want to start Lamisil treatment ASAP, here's what you need: First you need to locate some Lamisil AF Spray (make sure its the spray, not the gel), you can find it at Wal-Mart or Rite-Aid (Walgreens won't have spray, only have gel). Lamisil is made for treating athletes foot, so you will find it in the foot section. Next you are going to want to set up a temporary holding cell for the infected frog, the reason for this instead of his current housing is because you NEED to clean his living quarters daily so you want something smaller than his current tank for this. For the holding cell I recommend getting a plastic "Critter Keeper" (size: large) with 3 sides covered, eco friendly paper towels (light brown in color), a fake plant, and of course his water dish (changed twice daily). For anyone else trying this I would also say add a miniature under tank heater (the micro ones I believe are only 3 watts, a larger one is dangerous to use on plastic), but for you (kahluafeeders) the temps you posted are already high enough to prevent/weaken the fungus so you definitely shouldn't use any extra heat source. You will also need a separate container for his special Lamisil baths, a plastic shoebox with some holes in the lid works great for this.

Now for the treatment process: Once a day you are going to give him a 6-minute bath in a solution of spring water mixed with Lamisil. In-between each Lamisil bath it's very important that you clean out his temporary living quarters (you can do this while he's taking his bath). The approximate measurement I was given was 10 squirts of Lamisil per 500ml of water, the Lamisil Spray is a continuous flow nozzle so you won't be able to be exact. Put enough water in the bathing box so the frog can sit comfortably in it without having his mouth or nose submerged. Add Lamisil spray AFTER adding water, if the water is still completely clear there isn't enough Lamisil; the water should be very SLIGHTLY cloudy, you should see some small white particles floating around & its OK if you have a couple Lamisil blotches form on the bottom from where you sprayed. My setup held around 800ml of water at the desired water level, and tapping the nozzle rapidly 10-12 times seemed to be the provide the perfect amount. This Lamisil stuff does have some alcohol in it, so too much could be harmful! When you set the frog in the bath, use both index fingers to support his front legs so you can set him in gently with his back legs going in first, careful not to leave him in too long! In my experience, the frog will seem to enjoy the sensation during the bath, mine dunked down in it quickly a few times like he was trying to get it on the full surface area of his skin, and right around 5 minutes (right when he should be removed from the bath) he would climb up on one of the sides, almost like he knew how long he should be in there! The instruction I was given said to repeat this every day for two full weeks, some people said 7-10 days was good and it worked for them. For my sub-adult frog I only did 7 days of baths because by the second day his dark spots were completely gone, and by the end of the week his skin was looking so great, he was croaking every night, and was eating aggressively like a young frog should, so I could just tell the Lamisil had worked its magic! It's been 3 weeks since I did the treatment and there has been no signs of it returning, this really works and a lot of people have had wonderful experiences with this method!

Google around to see what other people say about the Lamisil baths, and check to see if there's anything I missed. I know I had trouble finding detailed instructions, so I'm trying to give you the best instructions out there! If anyone thinks of something to add, please chime in! I really hope you try this and have the same success I did, good luck to you and your frog!

[Mentat]

Respectfully disagree with light green spots being evidence of advance Chytrid fungus. To me they represent a skin irritation and should resolve once problem is removed. OP should ensure hands are washed well and rinsed with dechlorinated tap before handling frogs. I wear rinsed in dechlorinated water disposable gloves on rare occasions handle mines. IMO the priority now is to prevent further exposure to high temps and get frog eating again, good luck !

[flybyferns]

kahluafeeders,
How is your frog doing?

[kahluafeeders]

I tried to feed again last night, but as far as I see, it was a no-go. My waxworms are now either dead or turning into moths I've had them so long. I've never had anything turn down waxworms. Even my dog will eat them if I accidentally leave one within her reach.

Other than that, I'm confused as to weather I should try the fungus treatment or not. For more clarification, the frog that died was a dark green/brown color when I got him. There were no spots and then over the next few days he started to develop the spots as shown. The night before he died, most of his head was mottled but I don't have a photo of it. The frog that is still alive was also a dark green/brown when I got him and by the next day he was all light green and has been that way since, which is why I thought it was normal for the frog that died.

When I do handle my frogs, I make sure to wash my hands with dawn soap first (I work in the food industry, so it helps best to get food from around my nails). Then I rinse for about five minutes, scrubbing every part of my hand I can. Then I rinse them in water I've treated for the frogs for about a minute. I dry my hands and then spray them with the treated water I keep in a misting bottle (unless I know I'm only going in to get the water bowl or know I won't be touching the frogs, then I keep my hands dry). The only thing I can think of is that I don't wash my entire arms doctor-style and sometimes the frogs do climb further up. In general, however, they tend to stay on my fingers. Or my face. Lol. ETA: Should I invest in some food grade gloves for handling? I don't plan on handling often, at least not the tree frog. The pacman needs it more often because I have to find him in order for him to know I've put food in the cage. Otherwise he'd starve. Lol

So, should I get the fungus treatment just in case or not bother? I'm confused.