ok Jen thank you for all the info, you have been great help. I will let you know how i do. I have so many fire bellies to do different things with. If i find anything out i will be sure to post. And dont worry i wont be doing anything unnatural. seems Practices unnatural seem too common these days. And i am patient. Just hopeing for a good product for the November show. None the less i will have some to sell for that show but i want to produce my own product. A product that i can have pride in.