sick Simon

[gab]

I’m new to the forum and not great with computers, so please bear with me. I have a sick African clawed frog named Simon (I ‘m pretty sure she’s a girl, but she came with a name so I didn’t change it). She’s 5 years old and lives in a 55 gallon tank with several minnows (ones she didn’t eat when they were smaller). I’ve got a large Aquaclear power filter and a homemade canister filter as well on the tank. I also change about 50% of the water every week and a half and use Koizyme. I’ve never had a problem with water quality—no ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites and the pH runs around 7.5. Her tank mate (an albino African clawed frog-Simon is sort of green and black) died about 2 months ago-she was 10 ½ years old). Simon seemed fine after the death of her friend for a few weeks. Then she began to eat less and less (very unlike her-she’s always had a healthy appetite-maybe even a little on the pudgy side). She would usually eat 4-5 reptomin sticks twice/day and went down to about half that and then nothing for about a week(if I didn’t hand feed her, I wouldn’t even have known anything was wrong). I began to get concerned so I decided to try some antibiotics. I started with Maracyn 2 and Maroxy. I also started to salt her tank with aquarium salt—1 tablespoon / 5 gallons water. After a few weeks of an occasional piece of food (I was trying all sorts of treats and her Reptomin at this point-earthworms, baby fish, and flies) and no response to the Maracyn 2 or Maroxy (and many water changes to get all the meds out), I decided to try soaking her in chloramphenicol for an hour each evening(I found info on the internet -20mg/L and we use this antibiotic for fish where I work). She ate 4 pieces of food 20 days ago and ate 1 fly 12 days ago.
Even though she’s always been a big frog, she seemed maybe a little bigger-even though she had barely been eating for a while. After reading about bloat I also decided to try Epsom salts. The day after I started the chloramphenicol, I started soaking her in epsom salts for an hour each morning (1/2 tsp per gallon). After 5 days of the Epsom, I read on your site to use 1 tsp per gallon, so I increased to that. Today is day 13 of the chloramphenicol and day 9 of the ½ tsp Epsom salt. There is still no difference—I don’t even know how she is still alive and fairly active. Do you have any suggestions as to what her problem may be or what I can do for her? I love these frogs-I’ve had many of them over the past 35 years or so (since I was a kid) and I’d hate to lose her. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I love reading about other people’s frogs on your website.

[mpmistr]

I’m new to the forum and not great with computers, so please bear with me. I have a sick African clawed frog named Simon (I ‘m pretty sure she’s a girl, but she came with a name so I didn’t change it). She’s 5 years old and lives in a 55 gallon tank with several minnows (ones she didn’t eat when they were smaller). I’ve got a large Aquaclear power filter and a homemade canister filter as well on the tank. I also change about 50% of the water every week and a half and use Koizyme. I’ve never had a problem with water quality—no ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites and the pH runs around 7.5. Her tank mate (an albino African clawed frog-Simon is sort of green and black) died about 2 months ago-she was 10 ½ years old). Simon seemed fine after the death of her friend for a few weeks. Then she began to eat less and less (very unlike her-she’s always had a healthy appetite-maybe even a little on the pudgy side). She would usually eat 4-5 reptomin sticks twice/day and went down to about half that and then nothing for about a week(if I didn’t hand feed her, I wouldn’t even have known anything was wrong). I began to get concerned so I decided to try some antibiotics. I started with Maracyn 2 and Maroxy. I also started to salt her tank with aquarium salt—1 tablespoon / 5 gallons water. After a few weeks of an occasional piece of food (I was trying all sorts of treats and her Reptomin at this point-earthworms, baby fish, and flies) and no response to the Maracyn 2 or Maroxy (and many water changes to get all the meds out), I decided to try soaking her in chloramphenicol for an hour each evening(I found info on the internet -20mg/L and we use this antibiotic for fish where I work). She ate 4 pieces of food 20 days ago and ate 1 fly 12 days ago.
Even though she’s always been a big frog, she seemed maybe a little bigger-even though she had barely been eating for a while. After reading about bloat I also decided to try Epsom salts. The day after I started the chloramphenicol, I started soaking her in epsom salts for an hour each morning (1/2 tsp per gallon). After 5 days of the Epsom, I read on your site to use 1 tsp per gallon, so I increased to that. Today is day 13 of the chloramphenicol and day 9 of the ½ tsp Epsom salt. There is still no difference—I don’t even know how she is still alive and fairly active. Do you have any suggestions as to what her problem may be or what I can do for her? I love these frogs-I’ve had many of them over the past 35 years or so (since I was a kid) and I’d hate to lose her. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I love reading about other people’s frogs on your website.

Hey there, welcome to the forum.

Is the only issue with this frog a lack of appetite? If so I would stop all medications immediately. I think the best practice with animals like amphibians is absolutely do not medicate unless you know exactly what is wrong. Medications (especially the wrong ones) can easily cause more problems and complicate the situation. I would also cease salt treatments, nothing I've read here says to me the frog has actual bloat. If you could take some pictures we could see if the frog perhaps does have bloat. Some times african clawed frogs do take a short hiatus from eating, this is perfectly normal and no reason to medicate. They can go a long time without food and no one really knows why they stop eating randomly but again, it's natural.

Are you using KoiZyme as a water conditioner? It appears to be a medication and not a water conditioner that properly treats the water to remove heavy metals and chlorine.

Also one last thing to consider, this frog just may be old and not feel like going on. 5 years is rather short for a clawed frog and many specimens can certainly live much longer but depending on its genetics, it may just be 'tired'.

I would just cease the use of ALL medications, offer up treats like nightcrawlers as you have been and wait and see.. if the frog is not emancipated then it's not starving.

[gab]

I had pretty much decided to stop all treatments on Sunday when I sent my first post. I realize frogs periodically go without eating-her tank mate that recently died went on "food strikes" fairly often and I never worried about it. Simon had never refused food and it was almost a month of very little food before I started medicating.
I use Koizyme as a water conditioner-to keep the population of "good" bacteria up, not as a medication. I have well water so I don't need any water conditioners. I do run the water through a carbon filter before adding it to the tank, though.
I'll try to post some pictures this afternoon if I can figure out how to do it.

[gab]

Attachment 58684Attachment 58682Attachment 58685Attachment 58683


I'm having trouble with posting pictures. I'm off work today, so I'll try again. Simon is still not eating and is staying at the top of the tank since I stopped her meds. Please help.
I don't know how these pictures will turn out, but here they are.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF Gab! Sorry your frog is sick or maybe just lonely . Can't open pic files. Maybe you can try using a web site like Photobucket to upload your pics and then paste the provided code into your post.

Agree with Michael previous comment about not medicating a frog that does not show specific disease symptoms. Does frog looks bloated compared to recent weeks? Any color changes etc.? Please answer these questions here to get a better idea of situation in tank. Also, do the fish show any signs of disease? Thank you !

Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


1. Tank Size and volume of water in it (full, 1/2 filled, etc.)?

2. Number of inhabitants including all frogs and any fish?

3. Water source and any conditioner treatments?

4. Water Temperature and how is it heated (if so)?

5. Water chemistry levels: pH; Ammonia (NH3); Nitrites (NO2); Nitrates (NO3)? Note that if you do not have test kits, most aquariums/pet shops will do complimentary tests if you take a clean water sample.

6. Describe any filter system including model and media?[/COLOR]

7. Substrate type?

8. Tank set-up (plants (live or artificial), driftwood, hide outs and other decor? - How were things prepared prior to being put into the tank?

9. Main frog staple food and any treats? How often you feed?

10. CA, vitamins, and any other additives used (how often)?

11. Lighting set-up and hours it's used?

12. When is the last time frog ate?

13. Have you found poop lately?

14. A picture would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pics are fine).

15. How old is the frog?

16. How long have you owned him/her?

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred?

18. Any medications in the water (treatment dosis and for how long)?

19. Any salt in water (how much)?

20. Is the tank kept in a high or low traffic area?

21. Describe tank maintenance to include water changes, cleaning, media changes, etc.).


By Lynn(flybyferns), GrifTheGreat, and aquatic questions added by Carlos(Mentat)

[gab]

I'm working on getting pictures. They're on photobucket, but I'm not sure how to post them. Anyway, I think I answered most of the questions in my previous posts. To clarify, she's been in her tank for 4 years, and currently lives wiht about 5 minnows she didn't eat. 55 gallon tank filled almost to the top, Aquaclear 110 power filter plus homeade canister filter, no media really-just sponges and the biosphere ceramic balls for bacteria. I did have carbon and zeolite before medicating, though, but haven't replaced yet. Temperature runs 78-80 this time of year, no water quality issues, no substrate or conditioners (I have well water). I do use Koizyme, though. UV lights run at two hour intervals during the daytime, tank is in a low traffic area. Last time she ate was 4 pieces of Reptomin July 21 and then 1 fly on July 29.
I can't seem to get the pictures to come through. Please help. I'll keep trying.

[gab]

[gab]

I only seem to be able to get one picture to come through at a time, if you can even access them. I'll try another one.

[rodsboys]

I would say a case of bloat, but your frog is only oversized on the body, is there a chance it ate something it could not process and has become impacted? Definitely not gravel ...

[gab]

I don't think she ate something she couldn't process, but I guess you never know. I didn't really think it was bloat either since only her belly is big. If she is impacted, is there anything I can do? It also seemed odd to me that whatever it is, came up a few weeks after her tankmate died, but it could just be coincidence.

[mpmistr]

Yeah I would agree this frog does have abdominal bloating. I can't say if this is due to having an intestinal blockage or bacterial infection. If the frog is buoyant and having trouble staying submerged, I would wager it's a bacterial infection. Is there ANYTHING in the tank he could have swallowed? If it's not a blockage, it's bloat which can be rather serious.

I am not certain if your frog has hard bloat or soft bloat, hopefully it's soft bloat and will respond to treatment.

I would treat this frog and also test your water for ammonia and nitrite and make sure your nitrate is within a tolerable range (20ppm or lower). Something being wrong with the frog's environment is usually the root cause of the bacterial infection that causes bloat.

From Xenopus Express:
There are two types of bloat. First is a hard bloated frog that appears all of the sudden at the top of your tank. This frog should be immediately removed and quarantined. This is caused by a internal bacterial infection and sadly almost always fatal. Hobbyists can obtain Maracyn II® and Maracyn Plus® which are used for Bloat. These can be used in conjunction with salt.

Second is a "Soft squishy frog bloat" Like a the Michelin Man pictured to the left. This is caused by an abnormal accumulation of serious bodily fluids due to improper body metabolism. Many times damaged kidneys or liver no longer function properly causing edema. An expert can puncture to release fluids. Frogs can live for a very long time in this state.
Salt bath is recommended for this type of bloat.

Additional Info:
Bloating Disease - common affliction of African Clawed and African Dwarf clawed frogs. Bloating Disease as it is often referred to is when large amounts of fluids collect in the abdomen, legs and chin of the frog giving the frog the appearance of a blown up latex rubber glove. The frog can live with this condition for a short period of time but soon the frog will stop eating and become buoyant due to the pressure of the fluids on the internal organs. From my research I have discovered that it appears to be caused by the infection of a certain type of bacteria (still looking into exactly which type) which seems to affect the lymph ducts which drain the bodies fluids properly, the bacteria seems to block or stop function and ability of these ducts which leads to the accumulation of large amounts of fluid. This fluid can naturally be broken down by the frogs body if proper conditions or medication is administered. Aquarium salt and Anti-Internal Bacterial tropical fish remedy has appeared to be successful. Some accounts have shown that a pure diet of bloodworm can often lead to BD, especially in ADFs. This is perhaps because the bacteria which causes BD may be present in the digestive tract or epidermis of the bloodworms. To read another article about this by clicking here or here for dwarf frogs bloat

[gab]

Thanks for the input. I just checked her water again and all is well. No nitrates, nitrates, or ammonia. She is not having trouble staying submerged, she is just hanging out at the top of the tank more than at the bottom. She doesn't really fit into either bloat category-she's not stuck floating at the top nor is she squishy. I did try Maracyn II and salt a while back to no avail.
The only thing I can think of she may possibly have eaten that she couldn't process is if a piece of zeolite or carbon from the media bag in the filter ended up in the tank. I have found pieces on the bottom of the tank in the past. I wouldn't think one of her minnows would cause her trouble unless a bone got stuck somewhere. She's eaten many before. If she is impacted, is there anything I can do for her? There are no vets around anymore that I can take her to, besides, I've never had much luck with a vet helping my frogs in the past.
To be more precise about her eating habits (in case it helps), she ate fine until the last week of June. Then for about two weeks she ate about half of her normal food, then about a quarter normal ration for about a week, then nothing at all for 8 days. On July 21 (yes, I try to take notes if any of my pets are out of sorts), she ate four pieces of food (two Reptomin sticks and two small pieces of earthworm), then nothing until July 29 when she ate 1 fly. That was the last time she ate anything at all. I don't know how she is even still alive at this point. If anyone has any other ideas or anything else I can try, please let me know. She is my last frog and I would hate to lose her.

[gab]

Does anyone have any other ideas? She seems to be floating around the top of the tank more and more. Once in a while, she'll sit on the bottom for just a few minutes. I bought her some crickets and wax worms to try to entice her, but she wasn't interested. With no food for a month now, I don't think she will last much longer.

[mpmistr]

Honestly man I would treat this frog with Maracyn and Epsom salt baths.

Use a separate container, like tupperware. Add 1 teaspoon of Epsom Salt to every gallon of water that is in your bath container. Make sure the temperature is the same and let the frog soak in there for 1 hour a day.

[gab]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have tried Maracyn and epsom baths, but not together. I did the epsom soaks in a bucket for an hour per day for 10 days, then I was advised to stop all meds. At this point, I think I'll try again and do them together this time. If I could figure out how to force feed her, I think I'd try that too. I can't seem to get her to open her mouth and I don't want to injure her trying. Keep the ideas coming, I appreciate every one of them.

[mpmistr]

Well I advised to stop the meds only because I didn't know what was wrong with the frog. He certainly does look bloated and floating plus no appetite is not a great sign.

It could be an intestinal blockage too though, have you noticed any poop at all?

[gab]

I wasn't complaining because you said to stop the meds. I realize it's best to use the right med, but with these guys, if hard to know what to do.
No, I haven't seen any poop, although I rarely saw much even when I had the two healthy frogs in the tank. I think the fish in there probably broke any up and then it was taken away by the filter. But, if it is a blockage, is there anything I can do? I'm going to the pet store tonight after work if they may have something I can use. I'll check back after work this evening. Thanks.

[rodsboys]

Earth worms or night crawlers always seem to be irritable and really help with the whole pooing thing.

[Jenste]

Poor thing does seem to be suffering from bloat.

While reading your summary in your first post - you stated you had no Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite. A cycled tank will always have *some* nitrate - it is the end result of the cycling process. Combined that with a 10 year old frog passing away - they can live well past 20....I am suspecting something relating to the system might be a culprit. Are there any tank/system changes with in the past 6 months? I was first a fish keeper then a frog keeper so I always look first to analyze the "aquarium" part of the setting.

I would do daily Salt baths, if anything they will at least relieve a bit of the pressure that is going to be building up with in her.

Would you say Simon's bloat appeared gradually...say over the course of a few weeks? Or suddenly...over the course of a few days? Sudden bloats, where the frog has a sudden swelling of the body and often spends most of it's time floating is often an internal bacteria infection and sadly usually fatal. Attempt treatment with daily salt baths and Maracyn II/Maracyn Plus. This bloat looks like air is building up under the skin like a balloon - skin is taught, very little wiggle to it.

The gradual bloat is a slow "puffing up" - think of the Stay Puff Marshmallow Man. This frog looks like a water bed and jiggles and wiggles all over the place. It is sometimes thought to be linked to kidney disease or genetic abnormality where the body starts being unable to process the exchange of fluids between the skin barrier and water is retained under the skin. A few salt baths a week can help this frog live on for quite a long time after being diagnosed.

[gab]

Nitrate reading between 0 and lowest value using API drops. I did have a goldfish that lived with them who died in January-she had a tumor on one gill and was 9 years old. I did replace a UV filter in April or May, I think. I hope that's not the problem. I could disconnect it if I need to.
Her bloat appeared gradually, but her skin is taught, not wiggly. Her first symptom was the loss of appetite. After barely eating for a few weeks, I started looking at her more closely and noticed she seemed a little larger than normal. So her bloat is somewhere in between the two types. When you say salt baths, do you mean Epsom or aquarium? I assume you mean Epsom for the swelling.
What should I do? salt baths and an antibiotic, or just salt baths? Should I try to force feed her and, if so, how?
Thanks.