What is the BEST roach alternative for B.Dubia roaches?

[CJ PELCHER]

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/foo...aple-food.html

[CJ PELCHER]

I concur with Jeff 100%!! DO NOT STICK TO ONE FEEDER!! You need to mix it up to give proper amounts of all nutrients. Otherwise i would stick to giving gutloaded crickets with calcium (WITH D3) and vitamin supplements.

[SCF]

Don't get me wrong Corey, i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm looking to enlighten myself further. Dendroboard is not a community of scientists preforming data analysis on a huge variety of feeder insects on a large amount of test species btw.

I just said this I believe two days ago:

Re: New baby adspersus. You know you love THEM!

I'll pm you a complete nutritional composition of feeder vertebrates. Night crawlers/crickets/dubias are three out of the hundred of thousands of acceptable staple insects to feed your captive bred frog. They are just more readily available.

Edit: you are not wrong in choosing your staples by any means, but there are just vast amounts of insects that are acceptable to feed out cb pets." - end quote.

[CJ PELCHER]

Don't get me wrong Corey, i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm looking to enlighten myself further. Dendroboard is not a community of scientists preforming data analysis on a huge variety of feeder insects on a large amount of test species btw.

I just said this I believe two days ago:

Re: New baby adspersus. You know you love THEM!

I'll pm you a complete nutritional composition of feeder vertebrates. Night crawlers/crickets/dubias are three out of the hundred of thousands of acceptable staple insects to feed your captive bred frog. They are just more readily available.

Edit: you are not wrong in choosing your staples by any means, but there are just vast amounts of insects that are acceptable to feed out cb pets." - end quote.

(I'm not sure who said this...but "A staple diet is not a very good diet") Just saying, I believe this and will stand by this phrase.
In a natural environment our beloved herps are not solely basing prey insects based on what species of food they are and what they look like or their nutritional value. They have variety. Some species prefer different items. They are not a koala bears, that solely base their nutrition on one species of plant for survival. For instance, tree frogs will prefer a moth or fly verses a cricket or worm. But they will still eat the cricket /roach because its put in front of them.

Perfect husbandry does not exist other than the wild. Give your herp a good variety, the results will be rewarding.

[nirotorin]

Well they say you learn something new every day, and it's true. I had no idea about the whole uric acid, protein, roach thing. I'll be feeding my roaches way less dog food and fish food from now on. Good thing I've always fed my animals a variety of insects.

[JeffreH]

http://extension.entm.purdue.edu/urb...ocs/8Kells.pdf

Abstract:
Nutritional status of German cockroaches from the field (HUD apartments) was estimated using uric acid content to measure
amount of protein consumed, and respiratory quotient (RQ) to measure fat and carbohydrate metabolized. Initial trials demonstrated
the stability of these two indicators as nymphal cockroaches grow and with timing of meals. Nutrient consumption (and presumed
availability) was estimated by comparing uric acid content and RQ of nymphal cockroaches collected from kitchens of HUD
apartments with those reared in the laboratory and provided a series of meridic diets. Uric acid content was linearly related to
percentage of dietary protein (y=6.2x232.07, r
2
=0.96) and RQ was linearly related to log10(% fat:% carbohydrate)
(y=20.148Log(x)+0.790, r
2
=0.68). Field-collected German cockroaches contained 10.9±7.7 to 22.9±5.1 µg/mg uric acid and RQ of
0.770±0.024 to 0.803±0.260. Comparatively, cockroaches provided rodent chow had greater uric acid content (125.1±9.6 µg/mg)
and RQ (0.878±0.022). Employing linear calibration and these regressions, diet consumed by German cockroaches in the field was
estimated at 7±3% to 9±3% protein and equivalent amounts of carbohydrates and fat as an energy source. German cockroaches in
the field consume less protein and carbohydrates, and more fat compared to those provided a standard laboratory diet such as rodent
chow. Diet available in the field is considered suboptimal, resulting in physiological stress; the biological implications of this stress
are discussed."

Summary: Field-collected cockroachs contained an average of 15µg/mg uric acid while those fed a dietary rodent chow had an average of 125µg/mg uric acid. Its all in the diet that the roaches are provided.


Good points to bring to public attention, Corey. It is important that people know to avoid excess protein in the diets of their feeder roaches for the safety of their pets. Sadly, this information is not very widespread past this forum.

[NialR35]

So in other words, all those care sheets/members saying roaches need to eat high protein cat/dog/fish food are wrong?

[CJ PELCHER]

Nail...you can have high protein diets for your roaches yes... not a problem...the problem is making roaches a STAPLE DIET and overloading your herp on high protein based foods. It has detrimental effects just like feeding TOO much calcium and vitamins. People will discover this sooner rather than later. Dubias are a great source of nutrition ...but too much of a good thing DOES and WILL carry bad effects.

[JeffreH]

Nail...you can have high protein diets for your roaches yes... not a problem...the problem is making roaches a STAPLE DIET and overloading your herp on high protein based foods. It has detrimental effects just like feeding TOO much calcium and vitamins. People will discover this sooner rather than later. Dubias are a great source of nutrition ...but too much of a good thing DOES and WILL carry bad effects.

I agree with you on all but your first statement. I see no problem with feeding high-protein diets to your pet insectivore; its the nature of their diet be relatively high in protein, because insects are naturally protein-rich.

The concern for feeder cockroaches is entirely in their diet; the gutload. The publication I linked to above found Blatella germanica that had been fed a high-protein rodent lab chow contained nearly 10x the concentration of uric acid than individuals who were field collected. I would even speculate that this species probably feeds on even more proteinaceous food sources than most common feeder species that come from the tropics due to B. germanica's relationship with humans.

As long as roaches are fed primarily plant and grain based food the concentration of uric acid is minuscule. But regardless, a well-varied diet is the solution to any concern and is what is best for the animal.