Vivarium construction questions. (Long! I'm new to this!)

[UncleChester]

Hi, I'm looking to build two new vivariums, a 16"x16"x26", ~29 gal, and a 12"x12"x20", ~12 gal, for Gray Treefrogs, possible White's down the road (not mixed!). I was originally planning on just the big one, but I figure it's stupid to build one tank when I could build two. Both will be vertical tanks, built out of 3/16" glass. I can (and already have) cut the glass, but don't have the tools/know-how to drill holes in it. These are my first viv's that will have more than a couple hours put into them, so a few questions while I'm still in the gathering materials/planning stages:

1. How much ventilation? 16"x16" on top enough for the big one? Or would 6"x16" in the front at the top be enough? I was thinking eggcrate lined with screen mesh on the top or just screen mesh on the front? A top opening has to be able to hold ~15lb worth of cats.

2. I plan on a front opening door, and was looking at acrylic piano hinges, which can be glued right on the glass without any hole drilling. Any other suggestions? Anyone know a good source for the hinges that has reasonable shipping to Canada?

3. I'm going for a waterfall with a maybe 8" diameter, 1-2" deep pond at the bottom for the big tank. I planned on building it out of Quikcrete and the Acryllic sealer over styrofoam blocks. I understand I'll need to soak this in something acidic (vinegar) for a few weeks after it cures to keep it from raising the pH of the water. I was going to tint the quickcrete with different amounts of black, water-based paint for the many thin layers I plan to apply. Is this a solid construction plan?

(This is also why I decided to build a smaller tank at the same time- impatience. I expect the waterfall to add 6-8 weeks worth of curing and soaking, and I'd like to get a new tank done before the end of summer!)

4. There will be an ~3/4" hole in piece of glass set aside for the bottom of the large tank (it's glass from old slider windows, this is where a handle was). I'm planning to build a false bottom and use this hole for drainage. Then a small tank/filter outside, pumped to the top of the waterfall (same sized hole at the back about 20" up). I figure this way I can let the waterfall/pool run wild and should still be able to clean out the pump/filer when cat hair miraculously finds its way in through tiny openings in the cage. Any problems with this?

5. Backgrounds of expanding foam, covered with clear silicone, covered with coco-fibre/peat moss, anything else? I'm (irrationally?) afraid of GE silicone II, and this clear stuff is the only kind I can find that claims to be aquarium safe (Home Hardware's 'house' brand). Any other options for covering the foam?

6. I'm going to be embedding some tree roots from our yard in the background (it's from a cattle farm, no spraying has happened here for many, many years, if ever). I was thinking linseed oil to help preserve the wood? I also have some grapevines that I will be putting in, linseed as well?

7. How about some of the fungus/mushrooms, the kind that grow on the side of trees? I like their look, and they would make good perches on the background. Anything I should be concerned with and any tips for preserving them?

Anyhow, thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any wisdom anyone can send my way.

[Tropicok]

No linseed oil. Bake wood in oven at 200 deg. for 1-2 hrs. Don't use any pine wood. That's all I have about that. Isn't it great to build vivs? I have five of them now.

[SludgeMunkey]

Here is my two cents worth:

Hi, I'm looking to build two new vivariums, a 16"x16"x26", ~29 gal, and a 12"x12"x20", ~12 gal, for Gray Treefrogs, possible White's down the road (not mixed!). I was originally planning on just the big one, but I figure it's stupid to build one tank when I could build two. Both will be vertical tanks, built out of 3/16" glass. I can (and already have) cut the glass, but don't have the tools/know-how to drill holes in it. These are my first viv's that will have more than a couple hours put into them, so a few questions while I'm still in the gathering materials/planning stages:

1. How much ventilation? 16"x16" on top enough for the big one? Or would 6"x16" in the front at the top be enough? I was thinking eggcrate lined with screen mesh on the top or just screen mesh on the front? A top opening has to be able to hold ~15lb worth of cats.

More is better. Temperate frogs like Hyla chrysoscelis and Hyla versicolor do best with lots of ventilation. They also like cooler temperatures than warm climate frogs like Litoria caerulea. Have a look at the care sheets here on the sites for more on ventilation, humidity and temperature for these species.

2. I plan on a front opening door, and was looking at acrylic piano hinges, which can be glued right on the glass without any hole drilling. Any other suggestions? Anyone know a good source for the hinges that has reasonable shipping to Canada?

The only source for acrylic hinges of the type you describe (That I know of!) Is McMaster -Carr Industrial Supply. If you search about the web a bit, many of the vivaria and frog shops have other versions. Personally, I do not care for acrylic hinges- They are brittle and prone to warping over time. Personally, I prefer top opening doors as I feel they are less prone to escapes as "front loaders".

3. I'm going for a waterfall with a maybe 8" diameter, 1-2" deep pond at the bottom for the big tank. I planned on building it out of Quikcrete and the Acryllic sealer over styrofoam blocks. I understand I'll need to soak this in something acidic (vinegar) for a few weeks after it cures to keep it from raising the pH of the water. I was going to tint the quickcrete with different amounts of black, water-based paint for the many thin layers I plan to apply. Is this a solid construction plan?

Skip the vinegar bit, it is a waste of time. By using the quickcrete brand Acylic Fortifier, there is no need for it. Also, none of the frogs you describe are totally aquatic. Also, such a small amount of water will not need much of a treatment. Search "quickcrete" here and on Caudata.org and you will find complete instructions for the use of these products.

(This is also why I decided to build a smaller tank at the same time- impatience. I expect the waterfall to add 6-8 weeks worth of curing and soaking, and I'd like to get a new tank done before the end of summer!)

Cure time depends on how thick the concrete is. In the build you describe, you will not need anymore than 4-6mm worth as your coating. That is about a three week cure time.

4. There will be an ~3/4" hole in piece of glass set aside for the bottom of the large tank (it's glass from old slider windows, this is where a handle was). I'm planning to build a false bottom and use this hole for drainage. Then a small tank/filter outside, pumped to the top of the waterfall (same sized hole at the back about 20" up). I figure this way I can let the waterfall/pool run wild and should still be able to clean out the pump/filer when cat hair miraculously finds its way in through tiny openings in the cage. Any problems with this?

Sounds like too much trouble to me. Cutting such a hole in window glass is a real challenge without a fancy diamond grit hole saw made for the task. A siphon is cheaper and more effective. Without some slope in the bottom, such a drain will still allow water and decaying organic matter to remain behind.

5. Backgrounds of expanding foam, covered with clear silicone, covered with coco-fibre/peat moss, anything else? I'm (irrationally?) afraid of GE silicone II, and this clear stuff is the only kind I can find that claims to be aquarium safe (Home Hardware's 'house' brand). Any other options for covering the foam?

None. Save that the cure time on the foam can be months. Skip the silicone adhesive and use Gorrilla Glue, or just dust the surface with the coir immediately after laying out the foam. Silicone is overkill for this application. GE II is fine for terrestrial builds, but a no-no for aquatics. Personally, I have abandoned those canned foams. they take too long to cure (up to a YEAR!) properly, and warp and sag with age. Since you are already going the quickcrete route, use that method instead in my opinion.

6. I'm going to be embedding some tree roots from our yard in the background (it's from a cattle farm, no spraying has happened here for many, many years, if ever). I was thinking linseed oil to help preserve the wood? I also have some grapevines that I will be putting in, linseed as well?

Absolutely NO linseed oil or any other wood preservative. It is not needed. Everything you never wanted to know about wood for amphibian enclosures can be found here:

Caudata Culture Articles - Wood in Vivaria

7. How about some of the fungus/mushrooms, the kind that grow on the side of trees? I like their look, and they would make good perches on the background. Anything I should be concerned with and any tips for preserving them?

The hard woody shelf mushrooms are a go, but any other fungus is a no go. Treat those hard woody shelf fungi as you would wood, as described in the article.

Anyhow, thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any wisdom anyone can send my way.

[UncleChester]

No linseed oil. Bake wood in oven at 200 deg. for 1-2 hrs. Don't use any pine wood. That's all I have about

that. Isn't it great to build vivs? I have five of them now.

Thanks, just baking then. It is rather addictive isn't it?

More is better. Temperate frogs like Hyla chrysoscelis and Hyla versicolor do best with lots of ventilation. They also like cooler temperatures than warm climate frogs like Litoria caerulea. Have a look at the care sheets here on the sites for more on ventilation, humidity and temperature for these species.

I'll go for the entire top as ventilation then. I was going to stick with room temp plus a 60w bulb at the top (outside the cage) that I'm using for my Grays now. My room temp is on the chilly side for their recommended range, so they get a light. Whites will be different if I get some.

The only source for acrylic hinges of the type you describe (That I know of!) Is McMaster -Carr Industrial Supply. If you search about the web a bit, many of the vivaria and frog shops have other versions. Personally, I do not care for acrylic hinges- They are brittle and prone to warping over time. Personally, I prefer top opening doors as I feel they are less prone to escapes as "front loaders".

Hmm, maybe a completely removable roof would be an option? I was just thinking 26" is a long way to reach into to get to the bottom if needed though. Do you have other hinge reccomendations?

Skip the vinegar bit, it is a waste of time. By using the quickcrete brand Acylic Fortifier, there is no need for it. Also, none of the frogs you describe are totally aquatic. Also, such a small amount of water will not need much of a treatment. Search "quickcrete" here and on Caudata.org and you will find complete instructions for the use of these products.

So the quickcrete+fortifier build won't alter the ph? Or just not enough to bother these types of frogs with the small amounts of water involved?

Sounds like too much trouble to me. Cutting such a hole in window glass is a real challenge without a fancy diamond grit hole saw made for the task. A siphon is cheaper and more effective. Without some slope in the bottom, such a drain will still allow water and decaying organic matter to remain behind.

The hole is already there (it's glass from an old window, the hole was from a knob), so I thought I could take advantage. The idea of the pump/filter being easily accessible has some appeal to me, but so does having the entire tank in a single structure. Is there not a problem with residual water and organic matter if you use a siphon as well?

None. Save that the cure time on the foam can be months. Skip the silicone adhesive and use Gorrilla Glue, or just dust the surface with the coir immediately after laying out the foam. Silicone is overkill for this application. GE II is fine for terrestrial builds, but a no-no for aquatics. Personally, I have abandoned those canned foams. they take too long to cure (up to a YEAR!) properly, and warp and sag with age. Since you are already going the quickcrete route, use that method instead in my opinion.

You have me leaning towards quickcrete over styrofoam for the background now.

Absolutely NO linseed oil or any other wood preservative. It is not needed. Everything you never wanted to know about wood for amphibian enclosures can be found here:

Caudata Culture Articles - Wood in Vivaria

That's great info, thanks.

The hard woody shelf mushrooms are a go, but any other fungus is a no go. Treat those hard woody shelf fungi as you would wood, as described in the article.

Great! The hard kind are what I had in mind.

Thanks so much for the detailed response, I appreciate it!

[SludgeMunkey]

Thanks, just baking then. It is rather addictive isn't it?

I prefer boiling- less of a fire hazard. I use a pressure cooker, so the process is much, much faster.


So the quickcrete+fortifier build won't alter the ph? Or just not enough to bother these types of frogs with the small amounts of water involved?

Nope not at all. The secret is to skip adding water and using the acrylic fortifier straight.

Hmm, maybe a completely removable roof would be an option? I was just thinking 26" is a long way to reach into to get to the bottom if needed though. Do you have other hinge reccomendations?

I would go completely removable myself. Hinged units are just too much trouble in my opinion. Another option is the plastic "hinges" that can be purchased at well stocked Pet Shops, but this stuff tends to fail with age also.

Is there not a problem with residual water and organic matter if you use a siphon as well?
It is really up to you. I use a rigid extension on my siphons and find that is the easiest way to get all the garbage out of there. Then again, I do refer to my methods as the "Lazy Hillbilly Technique". I have such a large number of enclosures to maintain, I tend to go for simplicity and efficiency these days.

You have me leaning towards quickcrete over styrofoam for the background now.

That is my personal preferred method. It is a bit more work, but the results are fabulous! (My job gets in the way of my hobby, so I currently have half a dozen enclosures in various stages using this method. Out of all the methods I have used over the years, I find this one to be the most durable and longest lasting. I used to use the expanding foam bit, but dumped it for the reasons mentioned previously. In fact, today I am tearing apart my 20 gallon long project shown on this forum and Caudata as it looks like complete junk a year later.

[UncleChester]

I prefer boiling- less of a fire hazard. I use a pressure cooker, so the process is much, much faster.

It will depend on the size of wood I end up with, I do have a pretty big pot I use for canning that would be nice to use more than a couple weeks of the year (no pressure cooker). The oven is bigger though.

Nope not at all. The secret is to skip adding water and using the acrylic fortifier straight.

Fabulous! I had read about straight fortifier in one of your posts here, but didn't see about the pH.

I would go completely removable myself. Hinged units are just too much trouble in my opinion. Another option is the plastic "hinges" that can be purchased at well stocked Pet Shops, but this stuff tends to fail with age also.

Found someone on vivariumforum who siliconed brass hinges to glass:

My First Vertical Tanks: Build Log with Pics. - Vivarium Forums

and it was still together a couple years later. I didn't think silicone would work on brass, so I had dismissed the possibility of using brass piano hinges. Maybe I'll rethink this, though gorilla glue seems like a better option. I'll have to try a few test doors. Otherwise, it's removable top time.

That is my personal preferred method. It is a bit more work, but the results are fabulous! (My job gets in the way of my hobby, so I currently have half a dozen enclosures in various stages using this method. Out of all the methods I have used over the years, I find this one to be the most durable and longest lasting. I used to use the expanding foam bit, but dumped it for the reasons mentioned previously. In fact, today I am tearing apart my 20 gallon long project shown on this forum and Caudata as it looks like complete junk a year later.

Too bad about your expanding foam build, I'm totally convinced on the quikrete now

Thanks again!

[SludgeMunkey]

Silicone gels are wonderful stuff. I have worked with a multitude of versions of it daily for over a decade. (As an industrial maintenance technician the rule is: "If you can't fit it with duct tape, bailing wire and a Swiss Army knife, slop it up with RTV and pray.")

A hint with silicone cure time is temperature and humidity. (Same applies to Gorilla Glue) At 70F and around 60% humidity you can shorten cure time by hours and even days, depending on the application. I am no chemist, but it's something about water in the atmosphere that speeds up the reaction. I may be wrong but I believe good ol' H2O is the catalyst. I was able to confirm water is the catalyst for Gorilla Glue. I put a bowl of hot tap water in a big cardboard box and cure my projects that way. My wife calls it the "Salamander Geek Stinkubator".

Another hint is that a bit of acrylic paint mixed in with your quickcrete makes for some @$##^$%' awesome stone effects. Mix each small batch of 'crete up with different amounts and colors of paint and get an ultra realistic layering effect. For real fun, spray some sea shells and leaves with cooking spray and press them into the still wet 'crete to make "fossils"!

And, while I am rambling on- The ultimate cheater method for siphoning tanks (if you have a cordless drill):
http://www.amazon.com/Flotec-FPDMP21.../dp/B000FKF5WI

[UncleChester]

...I was able to confirm water is the catalyst for Gorilla Glue...

I went with "Ultimate Glue" by Elmers. It's their version of a polyurethane glue, but with a raging blue minotaur instead of a complacent gorilla as the logo, so it must be stronger (actually it's about 40% cheaper). Water is definitely required with this stuff, my first try at sticking a piece of hinge to glass as a test failed horribly, second try with sufficient dampness managed to hold 8lbs with a ~1 square inch bond area. Strong stuff! My silicone test seems to hold just about as well, so I'll probably use it for the hinge as it looks nicer and is easier to work with (for me at least).

Another hint is that a bit of acrylic paint mixed in with your quickcrete makes for some @$##^$%' awesome stone effects. Mix each small batch of 'crete up with different amounts and colors of paint and get an ultra realistic layering effect. For real fun, spray some sea shells and leaves with cooking spray and press them into the still wet 'crete to make "fossils"!

No fossils in my first build, but the mixing of paint in the quikrete is exactly what I've done. I layered various tints going from lightest as the base layer to darkest as the outer coat, with a few brownish splotches thrown in. It was pretty straightforward to hit it with sandpaper for a fairly realistic look, the outer more exposed areas end up looking 'worn'. It's curing now in my basement (cool and humid), so hopefully will turn out alright.

And, while I am rambling on- The ultimate cheater method for siphoning tanks (if you have a cordless drill):
http://www.amazon.com/Flotec-FPDMP21.../dp/B000FKF5WI

Haha! I saw one of these on sale here and thought it was a pretty funny idea.