Suriname Horned Frog died

[Tofuman]

A couple months ago I purchased a cbb Suriname froglet and I had no problems. It had been eating great and defecating regularly. But this morning I found it dead Any ideas as what might have caused it?

[Justin Bailey]

I see this happen far more often with Cornuta than I do with Cranwelli. Notice how you rarely see many of the CB adult Cornuta around? One thing to consider is the water dish if you have one in with the frog. I have noticed a few times in my experience, at the beginning of the night a baby Cornuta sitting in the water dish and I come back later in the evening and it is still in there. I come back the next morning and it has died only a couple inches from the dish. Sometimes when the frogs are that little and they dirty up the water with their excrement, it is easier for them to "tox-out" poisening themselves by remaining in the water that they had dirtied up for too long.
For some time now I have been keeping my babies without water dishes in their tubs and just taking them out and letting them soak in a seperate conainer every other day.

[Mentat]

I see this happen far more often with Cornuta than I do with Cranwelli. Notice how you rarely see many of the CB adult Cornuta around? One thing to consider is the water dish if you have one in with the frog. I have noticed a few times in my experience, at the beginning of the night a baby Cornuta sitting in the water dish and I come back later in the evening and it is still in there. I come back the next morning and it has died only a couple inches from the dish. Sometimes when the frogs are that little and they dirty up the water with their excrement, it is easier for them to "tox-out" poisening themselves by remaining in the water that they had dirtied up for too long.
For some time now I have been keeping my babies without water dishes in their tubs and just taking them out and letting them soak in a seperate conainer every other day.

Interesting concept Justin; guess have to balance stressing frog out by handling to risking a "tox-out" as you describe. Imagine if you handle them this way as babies, they don't get too stressed. Until what age or size would you recommend this no water dish system? Thank you !

[Justin Bailey]

I have been keeping my horned frogs and pixies this way until they are around the 2''-2.5'' mark. It seems to me that they become a more hardy frog by that time, and less of a fragile thin skinned froglet, what I like to refer to them as "well started" froglets. By this time they have been accustomed to their own routine. For example, I have observed most small babies to just sit on top of the substrate or simply just constantly sit in the water bowl up until a certain age/size. Where the ones that have grown a little bigger start to burrow in the substrate and leave their burrows at night to sit in the water for a period of time and then return to dig in to the substrate once again.
Not only does this benefit the frog by being able to monitor the water quality, but they also begin to associate them being removed from their tubs with meal time as well, as I also take the opportunity to do so while they are out. This method then also saves the frog from digesting substrate. I process and market my own soil mixture for fat bodied frogs that I based off of the soil that I encountered from Argentina grasslands that horned frogs inhabit. This mixture contains a sandy base that helps contain moisture and hold structure for the borrowing frogs, so this method of feeding works very well for me and the frogs to avoid any impaction from substrate.

[GRABibus]

Sorry for your loss....

[GrifTheGreat]

A couple months ago I purchased a cbb Suriname froglet and I had no problems. It had been eating great and defecating regularly. But this morning I found it dead Any ideas as what might have caused it?

I am sorry for your loss. As Justin mentioned, Cornutas are not known for their longevity. If you would like, please answer the questions from this link: http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...enclosure.html and post the answers back here. It is hard to say anything specific without more details. Sorry again for your loss.

[Tofuman]

Just a FYI, I purchased it from Eric Ivins of South Central Herpetological

1. Size of enclosure - I was keeping it in a small deli cup.
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences - It was by itself
3. Humidity - Don't know the exact amount.
4. Temperature - It's been pretty warm in my house. Around 80+ degrees.
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish - I was using treated water for everything
6. Materials used for substrate - Most ecoearth
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. - The deli cup was unused and clean. just ecoearth for the bedding
8. Main food source - small crickets and small earthworms
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) only used a calcium supplement once.
10. Lighting - no lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure - kept a heat pad under half the container
12. When is the last time he/she ate - it ate a week before it died
13. Have you found poop lately - A week before it died
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) Don't have any pics. Sorry.
15. How old is the frog - rough guess, about 3 months old. I don't know how long it was with the previous owner
16. How long have you owned him/her - 3 months
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - it was cbb
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats - only fed it small crickets and small night crawlers
19. How often the frog is handled - I never handled it
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area - low traffic
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) - I changed the soil and rinsed the container every 3 weeks

[froggymomma]

I am so sorry for the loss. It does not take much for me to get attached (about a couple of minutes) it is devastating. But,keep trying! They are fabulous pets.

[Tofuman]

Would I be better off just getting a well established wc adult?

[Justin Bailey]

It is always better to buy captive bred over wild caught. If you were able to acquire a adult that can be proven that it is WELL established then you may come out alright. I would make sure the person selling it can prove some how that it is feeding though. The WC Cornuta are known for not eating after importation.

[Tofuman]

I'm considering trying my luck with another cbb froglet. There's lots of wild caught ones floating around right now and I'm a little tempted to get one also.

[danfrog]

Could tone it down a tid bit and go with a fantasy. They are a bit more sturdy from what I hear.

[NialR35]

Sorry for your loss friend...

I'm kinda paranoid now to leave my 1 inch baby pyxie with a water bowl at all times. Thanks for your insight Justin, have any of you guys done this "No water bowl" method for your babies? Should I play it safe? It's the first time I heard this but it makes a lot of sense.

[danfrog]

Naw I wouldn't worry about your pyxie and the water dish. Cornutas are a rough frog.

[NialR35]

Naw I wouldn't worry about your pyxie and the water dish. Cornutas are a rough frog.

Did you mean rough as in fragile and delicate? because it kinda didn't make sense lol.

[danfrog]

Ah. Rough for the owner.

[danfrog]

Rough to care for. Sry been drinkin.

[danfrog]

Seems to me this frog was kept wrong to me. Temps seem kinda alright, but unsure. Unkown humidity. And three months in a small deli cup. The heating method wasnt correct, along with the lighting. And the frog lacked calcium/d3 and vitamins. And the frog was a cornuta. The frog could have died from several different reasons based on the trouble in the enclosure questions.

[Tofuman]

Seems to me this frog was kept wrong to me. Temps seem kinda alright, but unsure. Unkown humidity. And three months in a small deli cup. The heating method wasnt correct, along with the lighting. And the frog lacked calcium/d3 and vitamins. And the frog was a cornuta. The frog could have died from several different reasons based on the trouble in the enclosure questions.

Is it better to keep them in a larger enclosure, even when they're still small? I've been told that it's better to keep them in small containers because it makes it easier for them to catch their food. And I've also read that if you give small horned frogs to much calcium they can get impacted.

[Justin Bailey]

No, it is beneficial to keep them in a small enclosure when they are that small as it provides security that alleviates stress, and also helps them find food like you mentioned. I do believe however, that the deli cup should only be a temporary holding container as it is very easy for the frog to foul out the substrate in a short period of time. Depending on the size of the cup it could be too confined for the frog and cause more stress than security, as well as making it difficult to adjust temperature and huidity. If you are using one of those 90 oz deli style containers than that may be a different story. Yes, if you do feed too much calcium to the frogs they will get impacted. I tend to use supplements very very seldomly as I am one of those people who shys away from things that are man made that are used for nutritional purposes. I feel that if you provide a varied diet of healthy food items, that the frogs will get everything they need naturally.