Tree frogs - how many per gallon/cubic cm?

[EmJay]

I bet my google-fu is failing, but all I can find so far is on bullfrogs and dart frogs... How many tree frogs should one have per gallon? 1 frog per 5 gallons seems common, with lots of people saying 1 per 10 is better.

I ask because, while searching online for a 2nd hand terrarium, I found one in a frogs+tank+gear deal, and the owner (on-selling because s/he "didn't have time for them any more") blithely reports that there are seven golden bell frogs in an Exo-Terra mini/tall.

That's 30 x 30 x 45 cm - about 10 gallons? Seven?!?

I'm kind of torn, because I would love to rescue them from this semi-literate individual, but that would just return me to my original dilemma of needing to buy a *another* bigger tank - or two! - and splitting them up between the tanks.

[Lija]

what? WHAT????????? you're kidding right?seven? in exo mini? ......... (not using a language i wanna use ....)

anyhow back to business, are you talking about golden bell frog, litoria aurea? if so they are not really a tree frogs, they live on a ground level and can reach 4.5", i think they're the one of the Australia's largest frogs. for that size.... hm .... for 7 frogs? hm.... they eat big prey, can gobble on a mice and if i remember correctly due to aggressive, territorial and at times cannibalistic nature have to be housed alone.

when i think about i can't imagine even 3 frogs of that size living in exo terra mini tank, are you sure they're what you say they are?

[EmJay]

According to everything I've found, L. Aurea is classified Hylidae - a ground-dwelling tree frog. Mine is only about 2" long, nose-to-vent, so she's under the average 2.75", but yup, I've seen 4" ones in captivity. (4.5" and it's more likely to be L. raniformis.)

I've asked a question on the frog auction, but the seller has yet to reply. The photo certainly looks like L. aurea, but if it's not, then it's L. raniformis (Southern Bell) or L. ewingii (Brown Tree Frog), because that's all you can get in this country. Hopefully the seller replies, and doesn't just hide my comment so it doesn't scare off the punters (although someone has already bid, so the frogs are moving on regardless). I don't have high hopes; the seller has already attempted to sell the frogs once already, but misrepresented the goods so the sale didn't go through.

[flybyferns]

I bet my google-fu is failing, but all I can find so far is on bullfrogs and dart frogs... How many tree frogs should one have per gallon? 1 frog per 5 gallons seems common, with lots of people saying 1 per 10 is better.

I ask because, while searching online for a 2nd hand terrarium, I found one in a frogs+tank+gear deal, and the owner (on-selling because s/he "didn't have time for them any more") blithely reports that there are seven golden bell frogs in an Exo-Terra mini/tall.

That's 30 x 30 x 45 cm - about 10 gallons? Seven?!?

I'm kind of torn, because I would love to rescue them from this semi-literate individual, but that would just return me to my original dilemma of needing to buy a *another* bigger tank - or two! - and splitting them up between the tanks.

Hi Em,

Food-For-Thought

Even one per 10 is not enough room, IMO. Especially for a frog the size of ie a whites.

ie My 4 red eye tree frogs are in a :
36 high x 36 wide x 18 deep = about 100 gallons ( without substrate)
I would not put more than 2 more in.
Remember to calculate the space that substrate will take away from living space.
ie a false bottom is 5-6 " deep

Just the clean up from four is quite a bit of work.

Lynn

[EmJay]

Sigh... that's what I thought...

I did the maths, and even if I could pick up enough second-hand tanks/terraria to adquately house 8 frogs (the poor things in the auction + Froggley, whom I would *not* put in with the newcomers), I would then need to buy more lights, more filters, more thermo/hygros... Probably triple or quadruple the food/supplements bill, and then, as you say, the cleaning..!

I have the horrible suspicion that whomever is buying them will just keep them all in that absurdly tiny Exo-Terra Mini, with a box of flies and a box of mealworms, until they die or the person gets sick of it and re-sells them - or turfs them out into a waterway somewhere (which is - heyo! - illegal in this country).

The auction process makes it *very* hard, but I'll try to let the buyer know that there are resources out there to help (IF they're interested). I've also asked questions as to the husbandry of the frogs (both to know, and so people reading the auction can realise there's more to it than "sticking them in a tank with some flies"), and I'm looking up the auction site's policy on the buying and selling of live animals, to see if there's any recourse there.

(If this was a bunch of kittens or parakeets, the SPCA would be all over it... Frogs? Not so much. )

[EmJay]

Just as an FYI, here's the query I sent to the auction site staff:

Hi, your restricted items lists states that:
"Dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, horses and ponies may not be auctioned. These animals must be listed in their correct category as a classified ad, so the seller won't be obliged to sell the animal to an unsuitable home. " I'm wondering why this doesn't also apply to rodents, reptiles, fish, etc.

Is there any recourse when an auction listing is offering an animal that is clearly being maltreated (intentionally or otherwise)? Especially when the seller is not fairly representing to the bidder the appropriate care/housing that will be needed for that species?

The listing that brought these questions to my attention is for seven frogs, which are jammed into a tank that is not quite big enough for two. The seller does not seem to be well-informed in the care required for amphibians (in fact, this is his/her second attempt to sell the frogs; the first sale was completed, but the frogs were returned (after lengthy delays on the part of the seller) because the size of the tank and the number of frogs was apparently mis-represented in the auction). From the photographs provided, the frogs are not only over-crowded, but also under-nourished.

(I have asked a couple of questions of the seller, on the auction, but have yet to receive a reply.)

If these were over-crowded-and-under-nourished cats, dogs, birds, or farm livestock, the SPCA would be all over it - but because it's exotic pets, there seems to be a large loophole in the system. Could you please clarify for me if TradeMe's restriction policy on Pets & Animals extends to the cute and non-furry, and if not - why not?

The auction concerned is here (Closes: Tue 9 Jul, 4:48 pm):
xxxxxxxxxx

Thank you very much for your time.

Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxx

[Lija]

good job you do here! thank you for caring this much and taking action! but seriously i can't understand how you can physically even put so many in such a tiny tank, it is 12x12 footprint, say frogs are not max size, say average 3', so one frog will take about 3"x2" ( about that probably). there shouldn't be any floor space left at all, it is not enough even to transport them short distances

[EmJay]

seriously i can't understand how you can physically even put so many in such a tiny tank, it is 12x12 footprint, say frogs are not max size, say average 3', so one frog will take about 3"x2" ( about that probably).

From the (not-terribly-clear) photographs:
A) the frogs look quite young; I'm estimating at about 1-1.5" by comparing with the size of the feed containers. So they're very cramped but not reallyreallysquashed - until they double in size... o.O
B) there is very little habitat in there (not much viv in the terr, if you get my meaning) to crowd them in - the exo-terra background, a plant or two (fake?), two small plastic tubs of live feed, and a couple of approx. 5" x 3" bare patches of small stones

From those photos, I'm guessing that they are also not being supplemented and the feeders aren't gut-loaded. I can't see a submerge area, but there is a greyish blob that looks a lot like an Exo Terra water well..? At least the tank looks clean...

One thing I'm taking away from all this is that most pet shops need a swift smack upside the head. They're selling these tadpoles/frogs without providing any adequate care information at all! (For instance, when I was sold mealworms, I was never told they're too high in fat/low in nutrients to be a feed staple and that the exo-skeleton can cause complications. Nobody ever said anything about vitamins at all! Admittedly, that place specialises in avians, but they sell frogs too! They should inform potential owners of the responsibilities involved!) It's like the old goldfish-in-a-bag cliche... Make a sale, don't worry about it after it leaves the shop. Grrr...

[EmJay]

Okay, here's the very prompt and friendly reply from the auction site:


Hi,

Thanks a million for getting in touch, I am more than happy to help you with this.

Here at [the auction site] we are big on animal welfare and work really closely with the SPCA.
We want to make sure all the animals that are re-homed via the site are happy and healthy.

You are right, at the moment you can still auction our less furry friends on the site. I
can assure you that the seller has every right to cancel a trade if they feel the buyer
will not be a suitable pet owner. This is something we seriously encourage as the rights
of the animal to be well cared for are the most important issue.

We are currently looking into having all of the pets on [our site] re-homed through
classifieds. It is a big change though so it's not something that's able to happen over
night, I'm afraid.

I've had a look into the auction for the frogs. It's not clear if they've made a typo
with the number of frogs as it's hard to see from the photo's if there are indeed that
many frogs in there. If there are seven frogs then it is too many to be living in a wee
tank. It seems like the member is out of their depth trying to care for them so it's best
if they find a new home with someone who knows more about how to properly care for them ASAP.

I've forwarded your concerns to our Site Security team. If you would like to escalate this
complaint I'd suggest you contact the SPCA. They are in a position where they are legally
able to take action if they believe the frogs are being mistreated. Unfortunately we aren't,
so trying to facilitate finding them a new home is our main priority.

I really do appreciate your vigilance in getting in touch. It's so important to speak up for
animals that can't speak for themselves when you believe they are being mistreated.

Best of luck with your future trades and please let me know if there is anything
else I can help you with. You can flick me an email or give me a call on 0900 XXX XX.
We’re available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to help you out. Just bear in mind
calls cost $1.99 + GST per minute.

Best wishes,XXXXX

So - they're doing what they can do, and I'll have to see if/how the seller responds to my questions before I decide whether or not to call the SPCA.

[EmJay]

So the saga continues...

Turns out the frogs came from a kindergarten, who had taken the educational-but-thoughtless step of having tadpoles in the classroom for the children to observe. Once they finished the metamorphosis, out they went. I'm not sure if the seller is selling on behalf of the kindergarten and has been "frog-sitting" until they sold, or if they bought/got them from the kindy, took them home for a few weeks and discovered it was too time-consuming, and are now on-selling from there.

Anyway, I was right - the frogs are only about 14 weeks old, 1-2cm long (less than an inch). They've had a varied insect diet, but no vitamins. Seems like there may be a couple of L. ewingii in there as well as the L. aurea.

There are a couple of bidders, at least one of whom already has frogs, but I have no idea if that means "experience in amphibian husbandry" or "I bought some frogs and put them in a tank". (I'm worried it's the latter, as there was a comment about "We already have 3 frogs, and want to move them to a bigger enclosure" - in an Exo Terra MINI?!? I... Wait - what?)

So I'll see how the auction goes, but don't hold a lot of high hopes for the well-being of these little guys. C'est la vie, I suppose...

[Heatheranne]

This is always hard to see. I wish we could do more. It is wonderful that you are advocating for them. I am impressed that the agency actually does care and is trying in their behalf. You don't see that very often. Is there any way to offer education to the buyer from the site?

[EmJay]

Is there any way to offer education to the buyer from the site?

It's very tricky, in general. I might add another question to the site, and assuming the seller approves it, the info would be there for the buyer. If not, the only other recourse is to wait until/if the buyer has an auction running, and then contact them on that auction (which often leads to some surreal conversations! "For Sale: Manly Trucks, Guns, & BBQs Magazine" - "Hi, I was just looking at your auction 'Pink Fluffy Unicorn Snuggle Pillow', & was wondering if you have any in blue?" *LOL*).

I'll give it a go, anyway.

[EmJay]

Well, I threw together a quick webmail address and posted that on the auction with an offer of help should the buyer need it. We'll see how it goes (auction ends Tuesday).

[BlueKiwiOca]

I ended up buying these frogs, I agree that they shouldn't all be in the same terrarium, but on average they're about 1-3 cm long.. am keeping them quarantined, then will split them between Froakie's terrarium/ tank also there ended up only being 6! The seller miscounted.

The seller obviously had no experience with frogs (haha, here I am saying that... I've barely had any) and was going off "pet shop advice".

I'm trying my best now to make these frogs healthy and happy

EmJay, I don't suppose in the future you'd be interested in possibly taking on one or two of the newcomers? I bought the frogs with the intention of keeping a few as companions, and onselling the rest as I'm already finding looking after 7 frogs difficult!

[EmJay]

I ended up buying these frogs, I agree that they shouldn't all be in the same terrarium, but on average they're about 1-3 cm long.. am keeping them quarantined, then will split them between Froakie's terrarium/ tank also there ended up only being 6! The seller miscounted.

I think 3 per mini would do for a while, depending on how big they get...

The seller obviously had no experience with frogs (haha, here I am saying that... I've barely had any) and was going off "pet shop advice".

Ha, I keep hearing that from a *lot* of people! Got to wonder what advice some of these pet shops are offering on the other types of animals they sell...

I'm trying my best now to make these frogs healthy and happy

The fact that you're researching them at all puts you miles ahead of some frog owners I've met... But this is a really good place for advice.

EmJay, I don't suppose in the future you'd be interested in possibly taking on one or two of the newcomers? I bought the frogs with the intention of keeping a few as companions, and onselling the rest as I'm already finding looking after 7 frogs difficult!

Hm.. I currently only have 1 Exo Terra mini, and a little quarantine tank - I can't put juvenile frogs in with a mostly-grown Froggley; the size difference might lend itself to disaster. That's one of the reasons I didn't bid on the auction myself - I was browsing for a new terrarium, so buying more frogs would have just meant needing to buy... another new terrarium. (And lights. And plants. And substrate. And...) It probably wouldn't change my food bill much to get another one or two, but I can't really afford to set up another vivarium right now, sorry. :-\ If that situation unexpectedly changes any time soon, I'll let you know.

[Heatheranne]

Hi Blue,

Congrats on your new frogs. Hopefully you're taking them in will give them a better situation .

Do you have a photo of them? Photos would be helpful in determining their exact species. If they are Litoria aurea, here is a care sheet. If other, we can do some research for you to get them properly set-up.
http://www.frogforum.net/content/gre...ria-aurea-132/

Will you keep us posted on their progress?

[Tubby0512]

Well it depends on the type of frog. With my Grey Tree Frog I did research before I made him a permanent home and it stated 5 gallons per frog. Well He is in a 10 gallon tank. So it will have to depend on the breed.