Worrying behaviour

[Heatheranne]

You could add bleach to the tank and let it soak and then neutralize the bleach with lots of dechlorinator. Do several water changes and then rerinse again with extra dechlorinator. You will have to test the final water to be sure the chlorine and chloramines have been neutralized. You'd also have to be careful not to spill the bleach on anything. It can be done. If you lived close by, I'd give you a hand.

[Mentat]

Hi Caspian and sorry your frog is sick . Understand you are busy and school is first; but maybe someone in family or a friend can give you a hand disinfecting frogs enclosure as per Heather's posts. Reason is that no matter if frog treatment is succesfull; Giardia cysts can survive in soil or water from weeks up to months !

From what I've read, the cyst's life is inversely related to environment temperature. So in a heated enclosure (air and water in 80s) cyst survival outside host might just be a couple weeks; but in lower temps (60s-70s) it might be 7 weeks or more. Medicating for that long is probably not a good idea. Sorry I bring you bad news and good luck !

[Gnag the nameless]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Alright, Heather. I'll begin setting up the quarantine setup tomorrow. As for help, I'm afraid I won't get too much; I'm the only real animal lover of the family. My siblings are also busy with their school exams, and my parents, although they'll help me out a lot with my frogs, aren't as enthusiastic about them as I am, and definitely aren't the people to want to clean out a tank.

I've also just given Bumpy a dose of the panacur. Thankfully, she was very calm and patient with me. Let's hope Gnag behaves the same. As for Gnags feeding, she did eat an earthworm earlier, so at least she's still eating. Otherwise, she's been timid and not her usual, "I don't give a damn that you're lookin' at me! Gimme my cricket!" attitude.

As for disinfecting, I can disinfect Bumpy's tank properly; I'm able to carry it downstairs, and I can clean everything in it. I'll probably do that 2-4 times over a course of 2 weeks.

Disinfecting Gnag's tank is the biggy. I CANNOT move it from its current position, period. That's the solid fact in my way.

As for the bleach idea, I'll try it, but I'm worried that I won't wash it enough, or some of the bleach will stay in the tank despite how many washes I do. Also, do you mean with all the decor (small pond stones, driftwood, etc) out of the tank, or in? If I have to take it out, that brings the worry that the setup will be ruined, and it'll be extremely difficult to put back together again.

And, Carlos, for me, the frogs always come first. If there's a day with no big exams, I'm going to try and take it off so I can work on disinfecting the tanks.

Quick question: Could the Giardia spread to my Pacific Chorus frogs and Long toed salamanders?

Once again, thanks for the tips, advice, and guidance

[Mentat]

...Quick question: Could the Giardia spread to my Pacific Chorus frogs and Long toed salamanders?...

Have not seen anything specifying what infects what among many different species of Giardia . I would go with premise that if from a frog, it could infect another frog species and maybe even the salamander since they are related as amphibians. My recommendation is to wash your hands well with soap in warm water (before and after handling or touching any enclosures) and not to share anything among your animals unless it has been sterilized.

[Mentat]

Thanks for the help, guys. Alright, Heather. I'll begin setting up the quarantine setup tomorrow. ...

As for disinfecting, I can disinfect Bumpy's tank properly; I'm able to carry it downstairs, and I can clean everything in it. I'll probably do that 2-4 times over a course of 2 weeks.

Disinfecting Gnag's tank is the biggy. I CANNOT move it from its current position, period. That's the solid fact in my way.

As for the bleach idea, I'll try it, but I'm worried that I won't wash it enough, or some of the bleach will stay in the tank despite how many washes I do. Also, do you mean with all the decor (small pond stones, driftwood, etc) out of the tank, or in? If I have to take it out, that brings the worry that the setup will be ruined, and it'll be extremely difficult to put back together again.

And, Carlos, for me, the frogs always come first. If there's a day with no big exams, I'm going to try and take it off so I can work on disinfecting the tanks.

...

Hi Caspian! Curious about it so I read some more and found the species affecting frogs is G. Agilis and it does affect most or all amphibians . Also found out their cysts resist chlorine. However; they will dry out in a week after water sources are removed and substrate is dry. Also, high temps will accelerate their metabolism so they will survive for couple weeks instead of couple months.

Was thinking about your situation and think figured out a possible solution . It does have couple caveats though! First, you need to move Gnag into a hospital like enclosure. Don't need to be anything fancy, a sterilite or rubbermaid type plastic tub with damp paper towels (change daily) should do. The second step would be to raise Gnag's enclosure temperature to at least 90F and let it dry out by increasing ventilation. That would make Gnag's enclosure environment unfriendly to Giardia and either speed off the cysts metabolism and "burn them out" due to lack of host in a few weeks or just dry them dead. I would keep this up for 30 days and by then the medication treatment should be done on frog too.

Have no idea how much decor you got in there or if live plants are involved; but think this will work to sterilize an enclosure that can't be moved. Everything that is not part of a glued in background should be removed to help dry out enclosure. Get in there with a vacuum and go over every wall to get all loose substrate off the wall. Removed plastic stuff can be washed and air dried for couple weeks; cork/wood boiled for 10 minutes; pebbles, rocks etc. baked to 250 for 1 hour and left in oven to cool overnight. Imagine you got lots of time and effort decorating Gnag's home... but sadly to sterilize it need to take it down and everything that can be removed should be.

I would also get some Metronidazole (fish department at pet store) and make a 1 litre 4X concentrated solution. Use that to spray Gnag's whole enclosure and then start dry out process. Also, can use same type solution to clean the hospital tanks with paper towel soaked on it a couple times a week. Doing all this will take time but if you can at least move the frogs to hospital tanks this week; then can handle the enclosure once tests are over. Also be aware that if you have handled your other amphibs enclosures without washing hands first after dealing with your sick frogs or share maintenance items; there is a big chance their enclosures are infected with Giardia too . Good luck in your tests .

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, this is gonna be really hard and I've already a few problems with the plan but thanks for all the help.

Unfortunately, I'm going to be very busy for the next couple of days (until Saturday) due to my exams . I can get Gnag in quarantine during the week, yes, and begin taking apart the tanks. Big problem is is that I don't have 30 days to spare. I'm going to the music festival with my family in 3 or so weeks, and they'll bring me along, one way or another. I'm leaving my amphibians in the care of someone I trust, but they will not be able to forcefeed Gnag, or any of them. Down to the point, I need a fast solution that will take 3 weeks, tops, to do.

I'll go set up the hospital enclosure once I'm done writing this.

I don't know how I'd raise the temperatures of the enclosure. Honestly, I think the bleach idea would work A LOT better for me.


As for the setup, it's going to take me hours to take it apart. I'm going to have to take bucket-fulls of the smooth pond stones out, the moss, filter, driftwood, and greenery. I can bake the rocks, sure, and boil the driftwood, but like I said, no time to dry off the plastic lily pads/water reeds/hanging plants.

Unfortunately, the Metronidazole is probably not an option, either

I can try and get two seperate hospital enclosures, one for Gnag and the other for Bumpy, but I'd honestly rather sterilize Bumpy's tank 2x in a course of 2 weeks, instead of keeping her in a hospital enclosure. It's very likely she won't eat in a hospital enclosure, but I don't think the same will be for Gnag.

I don't know, but I want this to be over quick. It doesn't matter if it means a lot of hard work, just as long as Gnag is fine and her set up is fine by 3 weeks tops. I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this right now

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, so I just came back with a huge ton of crickets and after careful observation of Gnag, and some hard thinking about this whole situation, I think we might have a false bell. So, before we go ahead on this, I want to point out some things that could mean all of this is actually fruitless. Even though it is very likely she has Giardia, I want us to consider these facts first:

1. We have not done a fecal sample yet (I am already asking my parents if we could do one. Quick question: How much do they typically cost?).

2. Gnag is eating like her regular self right now, and acting the same way, too. I just purchased a full batch of 5 week crickets (the store I typically go to ran out over the last 3 days, and I only had earthworms to feed Gnag, which are not as inviting nor as fast moving as crickets), and she is gobbling down TONS of them (14 so far!!!).

3. The feces that I saw, I don't know if it actually had just came from her. She was in her cave, and either she pooped it out suddenly and it moved along with her when she swam out, or she kicked it up as she swam out (haven't done a gravel-move around/water change for 4 days at that point), and over time, underwater, it had lost its solidity. It was also split in half.

4. Why would it occur now, when Bumpy's giardia was eradicated 6 weeks ago, and Bumpy herself is showing 0 signs of Giardia?

5. Gnag's behavior has not changed, other than being slightly more skittish (however, that could be due to how I have been doing 25% water changes once every day over the last 2 days).

I'm definitely going to take her next feces for a fecal exam ASAP, but until I see a feces that Gnag just produced that is runny, I don't want to traumatize her and tear apart her beautiful enclosure all for nothing.

Sorry if I've wasted your time but before I leap into full on quarantine action, I'm going to do a fecal exam first, and keep a VERY close eye on our big chubby eating machine, as well as taking special precautions to wash my hands after handling Gnag or doing anything with her tank.