Worrying behaviour

[Gnag the nameless]

Hello, all

Over the course of the past 2 days, my bullfrog, Gnag, has not been eating much. She has also produced a runny stool (with no white flakes, though), and I'm concerned that she has contracted Giardia from my Green frog, who had it previously. I do have some panacur on hand, however, that I used for Bumpy, so I'm wondering if I should give Gnag 1 one of the same dose I gave Bumpy, and 1 dose to Bumpy as well, to clear up anything leftover. I can actually do it right now, if it works.

All tips, suggestions, confirmations, and replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Caspian

[Heatheranne]

Hello, all

Over the course of the past 2 days, my bullfrog, Gnag, has not been eating much. She has also produced a runny stool (with no white flakes, though), and I'm concerned that she has contracted Giardia from my Green frog, who had it previously. I do have some panacur on hand, however, that I used for Bumpy, so I'm wondering if I should give Gnag 1 one of the same dose I gave Bumpy, and 1 dose to Bumpy as well, to clear up anything leftover. I can actually do it right now, if it works.

All tips, suggestions, confirmations, and replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Caspian

Hi Caspian,

How is there size in comparison to each other? I would recommend having a fecal test done. If possible take a stool sample before starting treatment so you don't get a false negative result. Place Gnag in a hospital tank. Since you caught it quickly, I'm hoping it will pass quickly. Get the stool sample, call your vet for dosing and get the treatment started. You'll have to disinfect Gnag's home while she's in quarantine.

It's so tough when they're sick. Try and minimize her stress. Please keep us posted. You can do this. You did great with Bumpy! We are here for support.

[Gnag the nameless]

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of things on our side with this

Bumpy is around 3 inches, Gnag 3.5. I gave Bumpy 0.2 ml, so I'll do the same with Gnag.

I don't know if going to be able to do a fecal exam, I'm really busy with all my final exams in school, and I've little funding for such a thing, too but, judging by how Gnag shared a tank with Bumpy when she was younger, and it seems exactly like the Giardia Bumpy had, that's most likely what it is.

As for the hospital tank, that's also tricky. I've only the 5 gallon (no lid), and I don't want her leaping out, or being in too small a container. I do have a large, tall, spare plastic container that I could set up for her, with a lid and all, but she'd be in darkness for a lot of the time unless I used the lid for her main tank on it.

Disinfecting Gnag's home is going to be HARD. My room is on the upper floor of my house, and Gnag's 30 gallon is compromised of small pond stones, and a piece of driftwood. To sterilize all that, I'm going to have a lot of work to do, and I've got school as well. Honestly, I don't know if I can go through that whole big process again, especially with school and my exams stressing me out already.

Would it work to do about 5-10, complete water changes, sterilize most (but not all) of the rocks, give Gnag 4 doses of panacur in quarantine at the same schedule Bumpy had, continue to give Gnag doses weekly for 4 weeks, as well as complete water changes, give Bumpy a dose of panacur, and hope that does the trick?

Thanks for the support and kind words hopefully, this'll pass quickly. I need to go study for my final exams, but I'll be back in 2-3 hours.

[Heatheranne]

Then, I would give Gnag the treatment just as Bumpy received. Keep her in quarantine until the treatment is complete.

I still think you'll have to find a way to sterilize her true home before returning her to it. It's the only way to ensure a cure with no re-infection.

[Heatheranne]

You could add bleach to the tank and let it soak and then neutralize the bleach with lots of dechlorinator. Do several water changes and then rerinse again with extra dechlorinator. You will have to test the final water to be sure the chlorine and chloramines have been neutralized. You'd also have to be careful not to spill the bleach on anything. It can be done. If you lived close by, I'd give you a hand.

[Mentat]

Hi Caspian and sorry your frog is sick . Understand you are busy and school is first; but maybe someone in family or a friend can give you a hand disinfecting frogs enclosure as per Heather's posts. Reason is that no matter if frog treatment is succesfull; Giardia cysts can survive in soil or water from weeks up to months !

From what I've read, the cyst's life is inversely related to environment temperature. So in a heated enclosure (air and water in 80s) cyst survival outside host might just be a couple weeks; but in lower temps (60s-70s) it might be 7 weeks or more. Medicating for that long is probably not a good idea. Sorry I bring you bad news and good luck !

[Gnag the nameless]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Alright, Heather. I'll begin setting up the quarantine setup tomorrow. As for help, I'm afraid I won't get too much; I'm the only real animal lover of the family. My siblings are also busy with their school exams, and my parents, although they'll help me out a lot with my frogs, aren't as enthusiastic about them as I am, and definitely aren't the people to want to clean out a tank.

I've also just given Bumpy a dose of the panacur. Thankfully, she was very calm and patient with me. Let's hope Gnag behaves the same. As for Gnags feeding, she did eat an earthworm earlier, so at least she's still eating. Otherwise, she's been timid and not her usual, "I don't give a damn that you're lookin' at me! Gimme my cricket!" attitude.

As for disinfecting, I can disinfect Bumpy's tank properly; I'm able to carry it downstairs, and I can clean everything in it. I'll probably do that 2-4 times over a course of 2 weeks.

Disinfecting Gnag's tank is the biggy. I CANNOT move it from its current position, period. That's the solid fact in my way.

As for the bleach idea, I'll try it, but I'm worried that I won't wash it enough, or some of the bleach will stay in the tank despite how many washes I do. Also, do you mean with all the decor (small pond stones, driftwood, etc) out of the tank, or in? If I have to take it out, that brings the worry that the setup will be ruined, and it'll be extremely difficult to put back together again.

And, Carlos, for me, the frogs always come first. If there's a day with no big exams, I'm going to try and take it off so I can work on disinfecting the tanks.

Quick question: Could the Giardia spread to my Pacific Chorus frogs and Long toed salamanders?

Once again, thanks for the tips, advice, and guidance

[Mentat]

...Quick question: Could the Giardia spread to my Pacific Chorus frogs and Long toed salamanders?...

Have not seen anything specifying what infects what among many different species of Giardia . I would go with premise that if from a frog, it could infect another frog species and maybe even the salamander since they are related as amphibians. My recommendation is to wash your hands well with soap in warm water (before and after handling or touching any enclosures) and not to share anything among your animals unless it has been sterilized.

[Mentat]

Thanks for the help, guys. Alright, Heather. I'll begin setting up the quarantine setup tomorrow. ...

As for disinfecting, I can disinfect Bumpy's tank properly; I'm able to carry it downstairs, and I can clean everything in it. I'll probably do that 2-4 times over a course of 2 weeks.

Disinfecting Gnag's tank is the biggy. I CANNOT move it from its current position, period. That's the solid fact in my way.

As for the bleach idea, I'll try it, but I'm worried that I won't wash it enough, or some of the bleach will stay in the tank despite how many washes I do. Also, do you mean with all the decor (small pond stones, driftwood, etc) out of the tank, or in? If I have to take it out, that brings the worry that the setup will be ruined, and it'll be extremely difficult to put back together again.

And, Carlos, for me, the frogs always come first. If there's a day with no big exams, I'm going to try and take it off so I can work on disinfecting the tanks.

...

Hi Caspian! Curious about it so I read some more and found the species affecting frogs is G. Agilis and it does affect most or all amphibians . Also found out their cysts resist chlorine. However; they will dry out in a week after water sources are removed and substrate is dry. Also, high temps will accelerate their metabolism so they will survive for couple weeks instead of couple months.

Was thinking about your situation and think figured out a possible solution . It does have couple caveats though! First, you need to move Gnag into a hospital like enclosure. Don't need to be anything fancy, a sterilite or rubbermaid type plastic tub with damp paper towels (change daily) should do. The second step would be to raise Gnag's enclosure temperature to at least 90F and let it dry out by increasing ventilation. That would make Gnag's enclosure environment unfriendly to Giardia and either speed off the cysts metabolism and "burn them out" due to lack of host in a few weeks or just dry them dead. I would keep this up for 30 days and by then the medication treatment should be done on frog too.

Have no idea how much decor you got in there or if live plants are involved; but think this will work to sterilize an enclosure that can't be moved. Everything that is not part of a glued in background should be removed to help dry out enclosure. Get in there with a vacuum and go over every wall to get all loose substrate off the wall. Removed plastic stuff can be washed and air dried for couple weeks; cork/wood boiled for 10 minutes; pebbles, rocks etc. baked to 250 for 1 hour and left in oven to cool overnight. Imagine you got lots of time and effort decorating Gnag's home... but sadly to sterilize it need to take it down and everything that can be removed should be.

I would also get some Metronidazole (fish department at pet store) and make a 1 litre 4X concentrated solution. Use that to spray Gnag's whole enclosure and then start dry out process. Also, can use same type solution to clean the hospital tanks with paper towel soaked on it a couple times a week. Doing all this will take time but if you can at least move the frogs to hospital tanks this week; then can handle the enclosure once tests are over. Also be aware that if you have handled your other amphibs enclosures without washing hands first after dealing with your sick frogs or share maintenance items; there is a big chance their enclosures are infected with Giardia too . Good luck in your tests .

[Heatheranne]

Thank you Carlos . I hadn't a chance to do the research yet. Great help!

Caspian, Carlos is guiding you well. I am so sorry you're are having to deal with this . And especially after your hard work prior. It will give you peace of mind and a better chance of ridding her home of the infectious illness in doing this.

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, this is gonna be really hard and I've already a few problems with the plan but thanks for all the help.

Unfortunately, I'm going to be very busy for the next couple of days (until Saturday) due to my exams . I can get Gnag in quarantine during the week, yes, and begin taking apart the tanks. Big problem is is that I don't have 30 days to spare. I'm going to the music festival with my family in 3 or so weeks, and they'll bring me along, one way or another. I'm leaving my amphibians in the care of someone I trust, but they will not be able to forcefeed Gnag, or any of them. Down to the point, I need a fast solution that will take 3 weeks, tops, to do.

I'll go set up the hospital enclosure once I'm done writing this.

I don't know how I'd raise the temperatures of the enclosure. Honestly, I think the bleach idea would work A LOT better for me.


As for the setup, it's going to take me hours to take it apart. I'm going to have to take bucket-fulls of the smooth pond stones out, the moss, filter, driftwood, and greenery. I can bake the rocks, sure, and boil the driftwood, but like I said, no time to dry off the plastic lily pads/water reeds/hanging plants.

Unfortunately, the Metronidazole is probably not an option, either

I can try and get two seperate hospital enclosures, one for Gnag and the other for Bumpy, but I'd honestly rather sterilize Bumpy's tank 2x in a course of 2 weeks, instead of keeping her in a hospital enclosure. It's very likely she won't eat in a hospital enclosure, but I don't think the same will be for Gnag.

I don't know, but I want this to be over quick. It doesn't matter if it means a lot of hard work, just as long as Gnag is fine and her set up is fine by 3 weeks tops. I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this right now

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, so I just came back with a huge ton of crickets and after careful observation of Gnag, and some hard thinking about this whole situation, I think we might have a false bell. So, before we go ahead on this, I want to point out some things that could mean all of this is actually fruitless. Even though it is very likely she has Giardia, I want us to consider these facts first:

1. We have not done a fecal sample yet (I am already asking my parents if we could do one. Quick question: How much do they typically cost?).

2. Gnag is eating like her regular self right now, and acting the same way, too. I just purchased a full batch of 5 week crickets (the store I typically go to ran out over the last 3 days, and I only had earthworms to feed Gnag, which are not as inviting nor as fast moving as crickets), and she is gobbling down TONS of them (14 so far!!!).

3. The feces that I saw, I don't know if it actually had just came from her. She was in her cave, and either she pooped it out suddenly and it moved along with her when she swam out, or she kicked it up as she swam out (haven't done a gravel-move around/water change for 4 days at that point), and over time, underwater, it had lost its solidity. It was also split in half.

4. Why would it occur now, when Bumpy's giardia was eradicated 6 weeks ago, and Bumpy herself is showing 0 signs of Giardia?

5. Gnag's behavior has not changed, other than being slightly more skittish (however, that could be due to how I have been doing 25% water changes once every day over the last 2 days).

I'm definitely going to take her next feces for a fecal exam ASAP, but until I see a feces that Gnag just produced that is runny, I don't want to traumatize her and tear apart her beautiful enclosure all for nothing.

Sorry if I've wasted your time but before I leap into full on quarantine action, I'm going to do a fecal exam first, and keep a VERY close eye on our big chubby eating machine, as well as taking special precautions to wash my hands after handling Gnag or doing anything with her tank.

[Heatheranne]

A fecal exam is always a good idea. The sooner the better so you'll know what to do next.

If you can pick up some powder-free gloves that'd help too. Wear the gloves for each tank and then remove and wash hands. New gloves and hand wash between each tank...just in case.

No question ever wastes our time. Whether we are helping or just listening for support it is still worth it .

I'll be waiting to hear . Good luck with the stool sample. I'm sure hoping its negative. Crossing fingers!

[Gnag the nameless]

Alright, I'll try and get it done ASAP. Quick question: How much do they typically cost?

Yeah, I need to do that, and it should be easy, anyways. I'll probably do it on the weekend, when I'm not so busy with my Final Exams.

I'll let you know the results the second it is done.

[Heatheranne]

The test usually costs about $20. Be sure to call your vet first to check though so there are no surprises with the price before you get there.

[Gnag the nameless]

Ok, after a few days of observing Gnag's behaviour, she only seems to be a bit timid and a bit less hungry than usual. So, I've come up with some possible explanations for her behaviour:

1. Parasites.

2. Is it possible that she doesn't need to be feed daily, now that she's an adult?

3. Vitamin Deficiency (I am replacing my multi-vitamin mix and calcium + Vitamin D3 mix this weekend)

4. Bumpy's croaking is frightening her or making her wary?

5. Something scared her, or a cricket bit her?

I'll try and get that fecal Exam done ASAP.

[Heatheranne]

I'll be watching for the exam results. How is her stool? Any changes? Still runny?

[Gnag the nameless]

Sorry for the lack of replies, it's taken me a while to find a stool. The filter is very efficient in cleaning it up, and with the water changes they get blasted apart with ease.

As for the stool, it's relatively firm and of a proper shape, with no white flakes or abnormalities. As for Gnag, the only thing different about her is that she hides in her underwater cave a lot, some days won't eat and others will, and that's it. She's also refused any earthworms I've given her. Also, she's been croaking with Bumpy a lot, which also is making me question as to whether Bumpy is a Green frog or not due to the noise she's been making. I'll try and get a photo of Bumpy.

Could her change of behavior simply of been from a "bad" earthworm, or me mistaking one of the smelly Red wiggler worms for a Nightcrawler?

Also, Gnag's throat has turned yellow and her typanum is slightly larger than her eye, which leads me to question her gender. Is this a sign that Gnag is not a she, but a he?

Haven't done a fecal exam yet, school ended just 3 days ago. I will when I get the sufficient funds. Sorry for the wait

Thanks,
Caspian