ACF and Hides

[sabre]

Hey all!

Moved the little guys into the US 20gallon High tank (knocked the depth down to 12" for now) and I'm noticing some things that seem to contradict a lot of what I've read about on the forums. And one or two things that actually make me nervous, instead of just curious.

In the little tub I got them in, and then in the 'grow out' sterilite I moved most of the froglets into, they never had hides or plants. In the 20H, they have anacharis floating at the surface under 30w of incandescent light and seven little terracotta pots at various angles and positions on the bottom--which is still bare as I was concerned about sand being an issue where they are so small and the food that fits in their mouths is all sinking food and some is the same grain size as the pool filter sand I have (.45-.55mm). I covered three out of four sides of the tank leaving the front open and there is a screen top over the tank.

They supposedly don't like lights, but they spend all their time in the anacharis at the top of the tank. When they were first introduced, they sort of investigated the pots, but I have yet to see any of the frogs do anything more than sit on them for very brief periods after being 'startled' off the plants. All of the froglets seem to be spending all of their time floating at the surface and/or resting in the plants. They only seem to be using a few inches of real estate at the top of the tank. I notice that if they are disturbed, they 'dive' off the plants and float down toward the bottom for a few moments. If I'm not mistaken, I've witnessed this same behavior in young frogs of other species in the wild. So is this 'spending all the time in the plants and avoiding the bottom three-quarters of the tank' business a juvenile behavior and as they get larger they'll start using all their real estate, or should I be concerned? They are going down to get the food that sinks, so I don't believe they are incapable of using the full depth.

1) As they get older, should I expect them to use the bottom more? I'm still planning out the 90g and I'm wondering about hard-scaped hides (pvc pipe, driftwood, rocks, pots, etc). I don't want to put them in just because they 'need them' if they aren't going to use them--especially where they might be taking up space where plants could go and they seem to really enjoy their plants. Should I be concerned about things like 5in PVC pipe being too long that too many frogs could get in there at once and someone could get trapped and drown? Or am I just overthinking things?

2) I had a sponge filter in there so that it could sink. It wasn't turned on when I introduced the froglets, and while they were getting settled, one swam down the lift tube and, rather than take the chance that it wasn't actually stuck, I took the thing apart and 'freed' it. Doesn't seem any worse for wear and I can't even tell which froglet it was that went in there. But does anyone think that the froglets will try swimming down the lift tube while the filter is on? Should I be worried about needing to cap the tube with a bit of sponge or anything?

3) I am planning on doing a dirted tank (mineralized topsoil (soak and dry x5 with the addition of some red clay and then a sprinkling of muriate of potash and dolomite on the bottom of the tank) with a sand cap. I plan to plant heavily with whatever plants survive the transition to low light and my water (the Jungle Vals, oddly enough, aren't thrilled by this). If I let the tank settle for a month or two, does anyone know if that substrate could cause problems with amphibians? I don't think it will since people apparently keep shrimp just fine in dirted tanks, but I was looking for a way to get healthy plant growth without having to dose ferts (since that does not seem to be recommended for frogs) and this was what I came up with.

4) In my first thread here, I had a froglet who was lagging behind in growth. Where the majority of my froglets, and even the tadpoles who morphed while in my care, are growing larger and their back legs are getting stronger/larger, my smallest froglet remains much smaller. It's gone from being about the size of a US dime (~18mm) to maybe a US nickel (~20mm). Has anyone else experienced such a difference in growth rates? Even my last tadpole, which has just entered the final stage of morphing about a week behind the other two I got along with the froglets and frogpoles, looks as though it will be at least half again as large as this froglet. I've been feeding 5 ZooMed Frog and Tadpole bites, 1 Reptomin sinking Frog granule, and 1 HBH Frog and Tadpole bite twice a day with a water change about an hour after each feeding. The froglet isn't able to eat the HBH pellet and only eats maybe 3-4 of the ZooMed bites (the bottle says feed 5-6 per day so I figured that was alright), but I noticed a lag in the feeding response before I got ahold of the HBH and started putting in a little bit of variety.

If anyone has any ideas for the little guy, or anything else, I'd really appreciate it. I'm sorry for all the questions and the long read (again).

[Mentat]

...All of the froglets seem to be spending all of their time floating at the surface and/or resting in the plants. They only seem to be using a few inches of real estate at the top of the tank. I notice that if they are disturbed, they 'dive' off the plants and float down toward the bottom for a few moments. If I'm not mistaken, I've witnessed this same behavior in young frogs of other species in the wild. So is this 'spending all the time in the plants and avoiding the bottom three-quarters of the tank' business a juvenile behavior and as they get larger they'll start using all their real estate, or should I be concerned? They are going down to get the food that sinks, so I don't believe they are incapable of using the full depth.

Normal.

1) As they get older, should I expect them to use the bottom more? I'm still planning out the 90g and I'm wondering about hard-scaped hides (pvc pipe, driftwood, rocks, pots, etc). I don't want to put them in just because they 'need them' if they aren't going to use them--especially where they might be taking up space where plants could go and they seem to really enjoy their plants. Should I be concerned about things like 5in PVC pipe being too long that too many frogs could get in there at once and someone could get trapped and drown? Or am I just overthinking things?

Just keep an eye on them when introduced to new decor and make sure the frogs can't get stuck in it.

2) I had a sponge filter in there so that it could sink. It wasn't turned on when I introduced the froglets, and while they were getting settled, one swam down the lift tube and, rather than take the chance that it wasn't actually stuck, I took the thing apart and 'freed' it. Doesn't seem any worse for wear and I can't even tell which froglet it was that went in there. But does anyone think that the froglets will try swimming down the lift tube while the filter is on? Should I be worried about needing to cap the tube with a bit of sponge or anything?

Rising air bubbles will keep frogs from entering tube.

3) I am planning on doing a dirted tank (mineralized topsoil (soak and dry x5 with the addition of some red clay and then a sprinkling of muriate of potash and dolomite on the bottom of the tank) with a sand cap. I plan to plant heavily with whatever plants survive the transition to low light and my water (the Jungle Vals, oddly enough, aren't thrilled by this). If I let the tank settle for a month or two, does anyone know if that substrate could cause problems with amphibians? I don't think it will since people apparently keep shrimp just fine in dirted tanks, but I was looking for a way to get healthy plant growth without having to dose ferts (since that does not seem to be recommended for frogs) and this was what I came up with.

Got no experience with a "dirtied tank" set-up or how will it affect a frog; specially when adding muriate of potash to it. Think read here of members using sand substrates with Seachem's Flourish in low daily doses with good results.

4) In my first thread here, I had a froglet who was lagging behind in growth. Where the majority of my froglets, and even the tadpoles who morphed while in my care, are growing larger and their back legs are getting stronger/larger, my smallest froglet remains much smaller. I...

Runts are normal in all batches and usually are outcompeted or eaten by their siblings as part of nature's survival of the fittest strategy. Little guy might have a normal life, or a shorter one if stunting is linked to bad genes and affects organs developments, etc..

Don't stress out to much about frogs, yours seem to be doing fine .

[Gemma]

Hi sabre,

It sounds like you're doing a great job with them!

When they were first introduced, they sort of investigated the pots, but I have yet to see any of the frogs do anything more than sit on them for very brief periods after being 'startled' off the plants. All of the froglets seem to be spending all of their time floating at the surface and/or resting in the plants. They only seem to be using a few inches of real estate at the top of the tank. I notice that if they are disturbed, they 'dive' off the plants and float down toward the bottom for a few moments. If I'm not mistaken, I've witnessed this same behavior in young frogs of other species in the wild. So is this 'spending all the time in the plants and avoiding the bottom three-quarters of the tank' business a juvenile behavior and as they get larger they'll start using all their real estate, or should I be concerned? They are going down to get the food that sinks, so I don't believe they are incapable of using the full depth.

I'm not sure if it occurs more in juveniles than adult frogs (my adults and juveniles do it about the same amount) but it is normal behaviour and it doesn't sound like anything to worry about. Unless you're noticing any strange symptoms in them (e.g. inability to stay submerged) then it sounds like they're just relaxing. They tend to do this even more so when the water is quite still, in my experience. The fact that they're not using the hides is probably a good sign as they're comfortable enough to just relax at the surface.

I agree with Carols' responses to all of your questions. As for question 4, I have experienced this difference in size. I've just raised 80ish froglets from eggs and I have a few that are so small that they're the same size as the feet of their siblings that finished morphing 5 weeks after them! They're growing slowly but surely. It sounds like you're doing exactly the right thing for the frog in terms of the amount and the variety that you're feeding him/her. Hopefully in time your frog will catch up with the others.