First time with ACF froglets

[sabre]

Hey everyone!

I recently acquired ten baby ACFs from a grade school teacher. Not sure where she got them as she thought they were ADFs. Luckily, I was very skeptical and started preparing for ACFs. Didn't realize there would be ten of them, however. Nor did I think that some of them would still be tadpoles! The list of little darlings I received on Tuesday afternoon amounted to 3 tads (two with fully developed back legs and advanced front legs, and one that still had full barbels and little rear nubs), three frogpoles, and four froglets. They came in a plastic shoebox sized container in about three inches of very very very filthy water. In the little caresheet email I was sent, the teacher mentioned the use of 'spring water' so I figured we were in a bit of a long haul transitioning over to tap water (with a dechlorinator, I use Prime...nobody seems to have freaked out yet, but I'll switch to something else if suggested. Also, I let the water sit for at least 24 hours before using it around the froglets) so they're still in the same little container (which I feel badly about but I've read the little darlings shock easily so I've been weaning them over to 100% tap water and I think we're about halfway there). I've been siphoning out the gunk (which I now suspect was nearly all poo and not whatever powdered food she was feeding them) and have increased their water level by about an inch from 3 to 4 (~8-10cm for you metric types ). I didn't even get to look at the food she was feeding so I just ran to the PetCo and picked up everything that looked good--and some things I wouldn't have grabbed if I hadn't done my research both here and elsewhere first off. I've been feeding the froglets ZooMed Frog & Tadpole bites but mean to order HBH. I've been feeding slightly to the bottle (which says 5-6 pellets per frog per day and to siphon out the uneaten food in an hour) by putting in a pinch and checking back in every ten minutes and adding more until the food remains. I've been trying to do that twice a day (with a water change each time). It's not possible to overfeed them this way, is it? And I've been putting in a little crushed ReptoMin Baby Turtle stick/ReptoMin Gammarus treat bits for the tads. I also have an air pump set on low providing some disturbance (it's what she had, I've read it's good for the tads and the little froglets don't seem to be too freaked out). They're in the basement without a heater and all the unheated tanks at exactly the same level in the room are right at 70F (21C).

Any suggestions on how to improve their quality of life is greatly appreciated. I've noticed that there is a lot of conflicting information out there regarding the care of froglets and tadpoles, let alone the adults!

Right now, I've got seven froglets, two frogpoles, and one tad whose little back legs are about half grown in. But I think I'm starting to get into some trouble with my little ones and I could really use some guidance.

1) My largest froglet is almost the size of a quarter (~24cm) while the smallest is between a dime and a penny (17-19cm). The rest are in between the two. (No, I'm not sticking the currency in the tank, just eyeballing it. And I don't feed them directly after handling money). I've read that you should absolutely not separate/disturb them until everyone has finished morphing, but do I need to be concerned about my little giant snacking on one of its smaller mates? I've noticed a few 'accidental grabs' when food is introduced (someone gets grabbed and tries to get away) but it doesn't seem to be the same froglets every time...and rarely the large one grabbing one of the smaller ones. It just seems like they both tried to stuff the same pellet into their mouths at the same time and one grabbed an arm instead of the pellet and just didn't register quick enough. But everyone still has all four limbs so I've not panicked yet. Should I be panicking? I assumed they're just being uncoordinated younglings and that the poor visibility of the gunk-filled water wasn't helping them any. So I'd just like to know if I should separate them out based on size or will they be fine? Should I wait for the tad to morph before disturbing/separating them out based on size? I pretty much dismissed the idea that water changes would hurt them because I needed to acclimate them to my water and wanted to get them into a tank asap. It's too late to go back now, but I can't believe that the pile of poo at the bottom was at all healthy for them.

2) How deep can the water be? I've got a standard ten gallon (I'd like to skip that though if I can) and/or a 20 gallon. The ten gallon is 12 inches (~31cm) tall and the 20 is 14 inches (~36cm). I could always lower the level of water in the 20 gallon to take advantage of the larger footprint, but I don't want to drown the froglets. Would I need to acclimate them slowly to a greater depth of water?

3) Does anyone have a rough figure for me for when these guys will outgrow the 20g? I'll be testing the water with an API liquid test kit and I'll definitely move them when it becomes unsafe, but I'd appreciate an estimate on time if anyone has one.

4) How old/big should these guys be before fine sand substrate would be safe? I'm keeping them bare bottom while they grow out, but I would eventually like to transition them.

5) Before I knew I was getting ten of them, I'd planned to put the little darlings in a 90 gallon tank. That's still where I'd like to put them if possible. It was intended for an old friend who passed before I could ready it for him so it's been standing at the ready (I got a few things for him like a Fluval Fx5, a hunk of mopani driftwood (which I accidentally introduced to the tank far too early--the water was almost crystal in the bucket but apparently that's not an indication of mopani's readiness for tank introduction *facepalm* --and didn't bother to remove so the water has been tanin-filled for six months and hopefully hasn't stained the tank), as well as 1-2 inches (2.5-5cm) of very fine pool filter sand (Left the bag in the 'tank room' with the babies and it's already after lights out but I can get the exact grain size tomorrow. Sorry about that!)). I intend to change it to a dirted base with a sand cap and loads of plants. I understand they appreciate plants and I was hoping a dense healthy plant population would help with nitrate control. My Fx5 is also full of SeaChem Matrix. I've been wondering if I should have added more mechanical filtration than the basic sponges it came with, but since I heard those can produce microbubbles, I've shied away from it. But I can always post a different thread at a later time to discuss setting it up. It's 22 inches (~56cm) deep from the top of the base trim to the bottom of the top trim (which is as high as I would ever think to fill it) not counting the depth taken up by the substrate. I've noticed that many people advocate keeping these guys in water no deeper than 12" but I've seen 'Show us Your Tank' pictures with dimensions given of at least 18".

I think I've covered all of my worries for now. I apologize for the length.

[Mentat]

Hello Sabre and welcome to FF ! Have not kept ACFs but here is something to read that will help: http://www.frogforum.net/care-sheet-...are-sheet.html.

Seachem Prime is fine. Do keep the water changes small or can also use a gravity trickle system to slowly replace water (airline with valve to set flow around a drop per second).

As long as they are feeding variety is the key. Make sure you have veggie matter in the mix. Not sure if OK with babies, but accidental grabs of legs can result in injuries when grown.

Think the ten of them will be fine in a 90G. The FX5 with standard sponges and Matrix should be OK for filtering, would arrange return so it does not disturb frogs. To clear the tannin from water, get a large bag of Bio Chem Zorb and rinse extreemly well. Then place in FX5 near outlet. You can discard bag when water is cristal clear again. Not sure if FX5 will work on a lower water level; maybe consulting filter manual or experimenting will answer that. Main thing is that the filter does restart by itself after a power loss.

Sorry did not answer all your questions but hopefully the more experienced keepers will get those. Good luck !

[sabre]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice, Carlos~

I'd been looking for that caresheet, I don't know how I missed it!

I think maybe I've gotten some of my questions figured out myself--and come up with some new ones.

1 & 2) No one's eaten anyone yet. Everyone still has all their limbs and the frogpoles are already nearly fully morphed into froglets. I also haven't seen any grabs the last couple feedings. I've got the 20 gallon high ready to go (which I've read in several posts that at least one user used with no problems). I'm planning on moving all but the smallest froglets and the tadpole over to the 20 as soon as my sponge filter comes in (which should be Friday at the latest). I'm hoping they won't be shocked by the larger volume of cleaner water.

3) Still not sure.

4) Still not sure. I rechecked the grain size for the pool filter sand and it is .45-.55mm. I also have a PetCo mix of 1-2mm.

5) I hadn't even thought about using chemicals to take the tannins out. I figure I'll go ahead and drain the tank like I'd planned since it's already more than half empty but at least now I've got another option in case the mopani does it again the next time I try to stick it in there.

New Questions!

6) I read an interesting article about diet for these guys: Feeding African Clawed Frogs - the Two Best Diets and it got me thinking about African Clawed Frog Themed Art for Sale Has anyone ever tried that diet for their frogs? Or putting other foods in their frogs' diet like NLS Amphibian pellets or Repashy foods? I want to get as much variety as I can but I don't want to feed them the wrong sorts of things either.

7) Is there a list of things (foods, additives, plant ferts, plants, etc) which are toxic to frogs that is available somewhere?

[Gemma]

Hi Sabre,

I'm not an expert but I'll try to help you based on my own experience.

I use Prime...nobody seems to have freaked out yet, but I'll switch to something else if suggested.

Prime is good.

I've been feeding the froglets ZooMed Frog & Tadpole bites but mean to order HBH. I've been feeding slightly to the bottle (which says 5-6 pellets per frog per day and to siphon out the uneaten food in an hour) by putting in a pinch and checking back in every ten minutes and adding more until the food remains. I've been trying to do that twice a day (with a water change each time). It's not possible to overfeed them this way, is it?

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean here (forgive me - I'm tired). Do you mean that you're feeding them twice a day, each feeding session lasts an hour and you add more food every 10 minutes to make sure they have a constant supply of food within that hour, and then you siphon away any uneaten food at the end? If that is what you're doing then it would be possible to overfeed them as they're greedy little things and they'll just eat and eat and eat, but since you said you're sort of sticking to 5-6 pellets per day per frog then I doubt you're overfeeding them. I'd say any more than about 10 of those Zoo Med pellets per newly morphed frog per day and you're probably overfeeding them. With mine I just work out however many pellets I want the frogs to eat between them and put that many in at once. I don't add any more food because I know that I've already given them the maximum amount that I want them to eat.

And I've been putting in a little crushed ReptoMin Baby Turtle stick/ReptoMin Gammarus treat bits for the tads. I also have an air pump set on low providing some disturbance (it's what she had, I've read it's good for the tads and the little froglets don't seem to be too freaked out).

Have you been crushing the Reptomin into fine powder to help them to filter it out of the water?
Do you have another container you can put the tadpoles in, or the froglets? They shouldn't really be housed together because they have different needs and the froglets are likely to nip at the tadpoles' limbs and tails.

1) My largest froglet is almost the size of a quarter (~24cm) while the smallest is between a dime and a penny (17-19cm). The rest are in between the two. (No, I'm not sticking the currency in the tank, just eyeballing it. And I don't feed them directly after handling money). I've read that you should absolutely not separate/disturb them until everyone has finished morphing, but do I need to be concerned about my little giant snacking on one of its smaller mates? I've noticed a few 'accidental grabs' when food is introduced (someone gets grabbed and tries to get away) but it doesn't seem to be the same froglets every time...and rarely the large one grabbing one of the smaller ones. It just seems like they both tried to stuff the same pellet into their mouths at the same time and one grabbed an arm instead of the pellet and just didn't register quick enough. But everyone still has all four limbs so I've not panicked yet. Should I be panicking? I assumed they're just being uncoordinated younglings and that the poor visibility of the gunk-filled water wasn't helping them any. So I'd just like to know if I should separate them out based on size or will they be fine? Should I wait for the tad to morph before disturbing/separating them out based on size? I pretty much dismissed the idea that water changes would hurt them because I needed to acclimate them to my water and wanted to get them into a tank asap. It's too late to go back now, but I can't believe that the pile of poo at the bottom was at all healthy for them.

They often grab each other's limbs when trying to get their food so I wouldn't panic. My froglets do this a lot as well. They should stop doing it as much as they get older and learn that their limbs aren't food
You should definitely separate the tadpole from all of the froglets though, and if the larger froglets would be capable of fitting any of the smaller froglets into their mouths then you should separate them too (you could use a tank divider if you don't have another tank). If removing the tadpole from the tank, make sure that the water in the tank that you're moving it to is conditioned and temperature matched, and make sure to gently move it with a cup and pour it with the water. As long as you do this and the tadpole isn't removed from water at any time then it shouldn't be too disturbed.

2) How deep can the water be? I've got a standard ten gallon (I'd like to skip that though if I can) and/or a 20 gallon. The ten gallon is 12 inches (~31cm) tall and the 20 is 14 inches (~36cm). I could always lower the level of water in the 20 gallon to take advantage of the larger footprint, but I don't want to drown the froglets. Would I need to acclimate them slowly to a greater depth of water?

Did you say their water level is 4 inches currently? Rather than jumping straight from 4 to 12 (or 14), it would probably be a good idea to increase the depth to somewhere in between first just to see how they get on. Better to be safe than sorry. Mine are in 12 inch deep water. I started with the water at about 6 inches, then realised that the froglets could get to the surface with no problems, so I raised it to 12 inches and they can still get to the surface without any problems. After that I was adding newly morphed froglets straight to the 12 inch deep water and they had no problems at all getting to the top. It would be helpful if you had some floating plants or tall plants/ornaments in the tank to help them to rest at the surface.

3) Does anyone have a rough figure for me for when these guys will outgrow the 20g? I'll be testing the water with an API liquid test kit and I'll definitely move them when it becomes unsafe, but I'd appreciate an estimate on time if anyone has one.

I imagine it won't be very long but it's hard to say with there being so many of them. Hopefully someone else will have an answer to this.

4) How old/big should these guys be before fine sand substrate would be safe? I'm keeping them bare bottom while they grow out, but I would eventually like to transition them.

Fine sand substrate should be safe for the froglets now.

5) Before I knew I was getting ten of them, I'd planned to put the little darlings in a 90 gallon tank. That's still where I'd like to put them if possible. It was intended for an old friend who passed before I could ready it for him so it's been standing at the ready (I got a few things for him like a Fluval Fx5, a hunk of mopani driftwood (which I accidentally introduced to the tank far too early--the water was almost crystal in the bucket but apparently that's not an indication of mopani's readiness for tank introduction *facepalm* --and didn't bother to remove so the water has been tanin-filled for six months and hopefully hasn't stained the tank), as well as 1-2 inches (2.5-5cm) of very fine pool filter sand (Left the bag in the 'tank room' with the babies and it's already after lights out but I can get the exact grain size tomorrow. Sorry about that!)). I intend to change it to a dirted base with a sand cap and loads of plants. I understand they appreciate plants and I was hoping a dense healthy plant population would help with nitrate control. My Fx5 is also full of SeaChem Matrix. I've been wondering if I should have added more mechanical filtration than the basic sponges it came with, but since I heard those can produce microbubbles, I've shied away from it. But I can always post a different thread at a later time to discuss setting it up. It's 22 inches (~56cm) deep from the top of the base trim to the bottom of the top trim (which is as high as I would ever think to fill it) not counting the depth taken up by the substrate. I've noticed that many people advocate keeping these guys in water no deeper than 12" but I've seen 'Show us Your Tank' pictures with dimensions given of at least 18".

Sounds perfect

Good luck with your new froggies!

[Gemma]

Sorry I didn't spot your latest post saying you already had answers to a lot of your questions - oops!

[sabre]

No worries~ I appreciate the advice! I would have edited the first post but apparently there is an editing window. Thank you for taking the time to answer.

1) Maybe I can clarify a bit to make the feeding thing a little less confusing. The bottle says something to effect of 'Feed 5-6 pellets per day per frog and siphon up the uneaten food after an hour.' I put the food in in small amounts and check back in about 20 minutes (changed the schedule up a bit from the first post). If they've eaten it all, I put a bit more in. Then I come back in about an hour and siphon up anything that's left. I was worried they wouldn't self-regulate (and maybe they aren't and I'm doing it wrong) but I don't think they're getting anywhere near ten a day. And I started feeding them twice a day because I noticed in the morning that the largest froglet would snatch up a lot of the food and the two smallest ones were slow to feed but in the evening, the little froglets are first to feed. I don't know why that is exactly, but as long as I know the little ones are actually eating, I've decided not to worry about them so much. And I was kind of thinking that so long as I was faithful in sucking up the food quickly, if everyone was well-fed then the little ones would grow and the larger ones might think twice before snacking on their siblings. But if that's a bad idea, I will of course stop.

I honestly can't tell if the small ones can fit in the largest froglet's mouth. And, not to say it couldn't happen because I was worried about it, but I received three tadpoles (two of which are now almost completely morphed) and while they don't interact with the froglets as much as the froglets interact with one another, I've never seen any nipping or signs of damage. But I plan to move everyone over very shortly--probably even earlier than Friday as I'd said earlier though I think the last frogpole will probably be fully morphed by Thurs and I'm not sure whether I should disturb him or not. I decided that I finally have changed them over to pretty much 100% my water today and I do have other containers I could separate the two smallest froglets into if necessary and I figured I could 'steal' water from the 20g which would help to lower the volume down some. I've been wanting to take things slow since I wasn't sure about their water parameters or even the changing, but I'm afraid that--especially with ten of the little guys--I might be taking things too slowly!

And as far as feeding the tad goes, since I haven't had luck finding a mortar and pestle, I've been soaking the pellets and crushing them up already wet. I've noticed the tad seems to be interested in the ZooMed Tad & Frog bites I've been feeding the froglets, but I don't think it's able to pick them up at all. I put in three to four crushed up baby Turtle ReptoMin sticks and some crushed up freeze dried Gammarus after each water change (which is hopefully not too much, but I am beginning to think this particular tad was far enough behind in development that it really needs its own space).

2) I can definitely decrease the depth. I filled the tank in preparation and the temp is nice and stable at the same level as the container.

3) Yeah, I figured 2 gallons per frog would probably not keep for long. XD

4) Really? That's great! I'm still not sure whether I actually want to put it in though as most of them seem to prefer to eat their food off the bottom (the ZooMed food sinks). I hope they'll outgrow that behavior as their water gets deeper and their food gets more bouyant. lol

5) I'm hoping they'll be happy in there. I've ordered some plants and plan to get everything growing out and happy so that the landscape is somewhat indestructible and settled when it's time for them to move in. I'm already looking into ideas about what to do if the nitrates run high (pothos overflow filters and such). But, of course, if water changes and pothos/plants aren't enough, I'll find another solution but that won't be for a couple months at least (I think/hope). And I have a temporary grow out home they can hang out in if they aren't quite big enough for the 90g when they outgrow the 20g.

Another Question I thought of!

8) I'm ordering some plants that will be arriving later in the week. Should I worry about disinfecting them before introducing them to the froglets?

[sabre]

Update:

Since the little frog was staying small (there were two little froglets, but one must have had a growth spurt), I went ahead and separated everyone into containers (little froglet in one, froglets and frogpoles in the other, and the tad in the 'mothership.') I'm getting their hides ready tonight so I figured they could get used to cleaner water and a little greater depth tonight before moving over to the tank in a day or two. There was a little bit of drama with the move but nobody jumped out of the cups or ended up out of the water which was good.

Do I need to be worried about the small froglet getting lonely? I know they don't 'need friends' but they are rather sociable frogs, aren't they? And they were getting along quite well together. I suppose it can't be helped either way as I don't want the little froglet to become lunch.

[Felis]

Hi,

don´t worry- although I also think that ACFs shouldn´t be kept alone forever, he probably won´t even recognize the difference As long as he is considerably smaller than the others, he wouldn´t be safe in their presence.