B. Dubia Theory 2 month results

[demon amphibians]

So i started an experiment about 2 months ago to find the answer to the question. DO ROACHES REQUIRE HIGH PROTEIN DIETS? this includes dog food, fish food and cat food. I have 6 containers with 3 equal sized roaches ranging between new born and up to 1 inch long. each container with 10 roaches in each. 3 containers i fed nothing but fruits and veggies the other 3 i gave cat food, fish flakes and dog food along with fruits and veggies.

What i found was no difference in growth. overall which is the exact result i was expecting to see. In fact the vegetarian roaches have a healthier appearance. (Looks like there exoskeleton structure was less flaky and clean so to speak)
out of the high protein containers i suffered 4 deaths. out of the vegetarian containers 0 deaths.

for these two months i added none nor took away from one of my breeder bins. normally in one month i got 2,000 babies out of it. For the 2nd month of the experiment I got over 5,000 babies, this is a 60 percent increase. which the theory that high protein hinders breeding has a little more evidence now.

Now when i moved the babies into my nursery bin for one month feeding nothing but oranges. the day i moved them into the larger nymph bin a majority of them were already almost 1/2 inch in length. they actually grew faster then my experiment roaches that i had in the containers. And i only fed them one type of food that has almost no protein at all.

Out of the primary bin when i fed high protein foods i normally pulled out 40+ dead roaches out each cleaning, this did not include the two breeder bins . Since i have been feeding them nothing but fruits and veggies i have cleaned my bins 4 times i have pulled out 20 dead roaches total for all of my bins. This is a huge difference.
I know that this experiment is very inconclusive. But my theory is greatly swaying in the direction of being correct.
I am personally convinced. You would have to see for your selves to truly understand the differences that i am seeing through this experiment. even though i have thousands i totally believe even someone with a colony of 300 will be able to see the difference.

This concludes my experiment gotta get ready for the San Diego reptile show.. however a new experiment is about to begin.......

If any one has any questions or inputs please feel free. Your opinions are highly encouraged. With this i would like to thank Yoshimi and Jeff for there helpful advice and support.

[Meefloaf]

i'm looking to set-up a feeder culture of pallid cockroaches and i personally was going to feed them my veg and fruit scraps (also got family and friends who work in supermarkets, so can get free stuff thats about to be chucked), but read stuff about giving them fish/dog/cat foods. personally i'd prefer to keep it natural, surely they'll be tasty enough

[Mentat]

Thanks for the information ! Will try veggie/fruit diet with my roach colony and note results here in a few weeks .

[JeffreH]

Very cool DA - glad you are seeing some notable results. It will be interesting to see the net effect on larger sample sizes.

I'll be in Amazonian rainforest for the next two weeks but I'd like to be updated on anything new in the workings on this experiment. If you can get some solid numerical data on everything you are testing fo; I might be able to generate some hypothetical population models for each test group in order to see how statistically significant your data is and I can model the average difference after X replications seen between each experimental group. Modeling isn't going to yield real-world, conclusive data in its own right... but we can run something like 1000 replications and see a sort of hypothetical population growth rate to compare with each group.

[demon amphibians]

certainly Jeff. I will do the best i can to get the most detailed information I can. Just PM me and give me details on how particular you want this information annualized I just bought about 4 dozen different sized containers for an upcoming sale in July so i have plenty of material to work with now.

[demon amphibians]

My next experiment will be on cannibalization between hissers and dubia. To better find out if they can truly be housed to gether. Like the last experiment, i will have many containers with a variation of different conditions to get a more certain result. When i start i will give the full details and pic's. And at the end a solid answer to the question.

[Heatheranne]

Excellent data! DA, what do you keeping your breeding tubs at?

[demon amphibians]

I keep my bins together in a closet in my extra bed room, where it is dark and warm. The bed room itself has a constant temp between 80 and 85F. The closet ranges between 90 and 100. This works great because when i add new species and extra bins i do not have to buy additional heat sources.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

Great work!
Can you list what foods you have been offering,
I have 50 nymphs that I plan on trying to start a colony with,
I have a work shop that is vacant 99% of the time and I can keep the temps high H80-L90
What humidity's should I shoot for.

[demon amphibians]

Great work!
Can you list what foods you have been offering,
I have 50 nymphs that I plan on trying to start a colony with,
I have a work shop that is vacant 99% of the time and I can keep the temps high H80-L90
What humidity's should I shoot for.

you should have excellent results with those temps. B Dubia can do well in a wide range of humidity. If you live in a dry desert area that should be the only time you experience problems with humidity. If you use water crystals at all, then you are probably giving your roaches perfect humidity levels. I wanna say 60 percent should be your mid point stay above 40 and below 80.

[Louis Charles Bruckner]

you should have excellent results with those temps. B Dubia can do well in a wide range of humidity. If you live in a dry desert area that should be the only time you experience problems with humidity. If you use water crystals at all, then you are probably giving your roaches perfect humidity levels. I wanna say 60 percent should be your mid point stay above 40 and below 80.

I plan on using one of my spare Zoo med hygrotherm controllers to requlate the temps and monitor the humidly.
For heating I plan on using a heating pad for human use set to low.
And the HVAC system in the shop set to 78F and to de humidify.

I currently have them in a small plastic tub with a few pieces of paper egg crate and feeding oats with flukers cricket meal with calcium.
on on side of the tub and water crystals on the other.

Since the nymphs are so small I don't put the food or the crystals in a dish they can't seem to get into it LOL

I plan on getting a large 18G plastic storage bin to replace the small bin I have now.

How often should I clean the set up. once a week?
Since I travel so much I plan on only feeding fresh veg when I am home and removing it before I leave. and check it daily to remove any
remains that might go bad and to prevent mold since I have read that mold is really bad.

Again thanks for the info. and I hope I didn't derail the tread too bad.

[Heatheranne]

Good idea. I keep my bin at 90'F currently, though a few weeks ago I turned it down a bit to control the breeding. I only feed out about 12 or so medium to adults a week and currently have around 500-600 estimated adults, likely more, and 3x as many babies. My turtles eat the small ones. I feed the larger ones to my pacmans and bullfrog.

[demon amphibians]

Good idea. I keep my bin at 90'F currently, though a few weeks ago I turned it down a bit to control the breeding. I only feed out about 12 or so medium to adults a week and currently have around 500-600 estimated adults, likely more, and 3x as many babies. My turtles eat the small ones. I feed the larger ones to my pacmans and bullfrog.

They can get out of control if you let them. 600 adults are a lot, I usually try to feed off the extra males. My cane toads and bullfrog can sure put them away. My turtle loves them too. When you have that many breeders the ratio 8 females to 1 male is pretty close to the best breeding you can get. But i am sure you are already breeding them faster then you are feeding them off.

[Heatheranne]

They can get out of control if you let them. 600 adults are a lot, I usually try to feed off the extra males. My cane toads and bullfrog can sure put them away. My turtle loves them too. When you have that many breeders the ratio 8 females to 1 male is pretty close to the best breeding you can get. But i am sure you are already breeding them faster then you are feeding them off.

You're not kidding, lol! So many new nymphs every day. Hence the turning down of the bulb or turning off sometimes. I will likely sell some this summer.

I moved mine to a 20gal long. I feed at one end and keep a 75watt red heat bulb at other. I actually mist the very top of the tank every 3 days or so. They molt faster . Then I pick out the freshly molted ones for my frogs. I feed mine carrots, oranges, apples, bananas, romaine lettuce, water gel, and Cheerios. A few other things sometimes.

When will your next study be? Do you sell yours at the reptile shows?

[demon amphibians]

I will be conducting a study when i get more hissers. I kinda fed all my other ones off to my cane toads. But i do intend on breeding hissers whenever i can get my hands on some good prices. When i get these hissers i will conduct the study on hissers feeding on dubia. I know both species like the back of my hand and pretty much know the outcome of what this study is going to be. But i want to provide solid detailed info and try to determine where hissers will prey on Dubia and where cannibalism will occur for both species. Hopefully i can get this started in a couple of weeks.

[JeffreH]

@Demon A - did I ever send these to you? Additional evidence that carbohydrates are what cockroaches thrive on, and that their amino acid needs can be primarily derived from plant matter. There is some evidence that excessive protein in the diet can result in larger-sized adult individuals; but the effect on reproductive fitness suggests that high-protein diets are worthless and often harmful in the long-term due to ketone production and uric acid buildup.

1) Hamilton, Robert L. and Cody, Schal (1988). Effects of Dietary Protein Levels on Reproduction and Food Consumption in the German Cockroach (Dictyoptera: Blattellidae). Annals of the of the Entomological Society of America. Vol 81, p. 969-976(8).

Abstract:
The effects of four diets (commercial rat food, 5, 25, and 65% protein) on reproduction and daily food consumption of male and female German cockroaches were investigated. Females compensate for low dietary protein levels by elevating consumption rates and reproduce normally. Conversely, a high-protein diet significantly delayed mating in females and resulted in smaller oöthecae. Percentage hatch of oöthecae and male sexual maturation were unaffected by dietary protein content. Males that were allowed to copulate twice a week, ate more, and died sooner than males allowed to mate only once. The role of diet composition in regulating feeding behavior is discussed.

-Also, a 2011 study using lobster roaches (N. cinerea)

2) South, Sandra H., House, Clarissa M., Moore, Allen J., Simpson, Stephen J., Hunt, John (June 2011). MALE COCKROACHES PREFER A HIGH CARBOHYDRATE DIET THAT MAKES THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO FEMALES: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE STUDY CONDITION DEPENDENCE. Evolution: Vol 65, p. 1594-1608 (6).

Abstract

Sexual selection is a major force driving the evolution of elaborate male sexual traits. Handicap models of sexual selection predict that male sexual traits should covary positively with condition, making them reliable indicators of male quality. However, most studies have either manipulated condition through varying diet quantity and/or caloric content without knowledge of specific nutrient effects or have correlated proxies of condition with sexual trait expression. We used nutritional geometry to quantify protein and carbohydrate intake by male cockroaches, Nauphoeta cinerea, and related this to sex pheromone expression, attractiveness, and dominance status. We found that carbohydrate, but not protein, intake is related to male sex pheromone expression and attractiveness but not dominance status. Additionally, we related two condition proxies (weight gain and lipid reserves) to protein and carbohydrate acquisition. Weight gain increased with the intake of both nutrients, whereas lipid reserves only increased with carbohydrate intake. Importantly, lipid accumulation was not as responsive to carbohydrate intake as attractiveness and thus was a less-accurate condition proxy. Moreover, males preferentially consumed high carbohydrate diets with little regard for protein content suggesting that they actively increase their carbohydrate intake thereby maximizing their reproductive fitness by being attractive.



-I've highlighted key points inRED. I can try to get access to the full-text publication through OhioLink if you'd like it and I can try to email them to you. Good stuff that your results are consistent DA! As the evidence piles up, we can make more pushes to proper roach husbandry that will offer the best colony growth and reproductive success. = )

[demon amphibians]

@Demon A - did I ever send these to you? Additional evidence that carbohydrates are what cockroaches thrive on, and that their amino acid needs can be primarily derived from plant matter. There is some evidence that excessive protein in the diet can result in larger-sized adult individuals; but the effect on reproductive fitness suggests that high-protein diets are worthless and often harmful in the long-term due to ketone production and uric acid buildup.

1) Hamilton, Robert L. and Cody, Schal (1988). Effects of Dietary Protein Levels on Reproduction and Food Consumption in the German Cockroach (Dictyoptera: Blattellidae). Annals of the of the Entomological Society of America. Vol 81, p. 969-976(8).

Abstract:
The effects of four diets (commercial rat food, 5, 25, and 65% protein) on reproduction and daily food consumption of male and female German cockroaches were investigated. Females compensate for low dietary protein levels by elevating consumption rates and reproduce normally. Conversely, a high-protein diet significantly delayed mating in females and resulted in smaller oöthecae. Percentage hatch of oöthecae and male sexual maturation were unaffected by dietary protein content. Males that were allowed to copulate twice a week, ate more, and died sooner than males allowed to mate only once. The role of diet composition in regulating feeding behavior is discussed.

-Also, a 2011 study using lobster roaches (N. cinerea)

2) South, Sandra H., House, Clarissa M., Moore, Allen J., Simpson, Stephen J., Hunt, John (June 2011). MALE COCKROACHES PREFER A HIGH CARBOHYDRATE DIET THAT MAKES THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO FEMALES: IMPLICATIONS FOR THE STUDY CONDITION DEPENDENCE. Evolution: Vol 65, p. 1594-1608 (6).

Abstract

Sexual selection is a major force driving the evolution of elaborate male sexual traits. Handicap models of sexual selection predict that male sexual traits should covary positively with condition, making them reliable indicators of male quality. However, most studies have either manipulated condition through varying diet quantity and/or caloric content without knowledge of specific nutrient effects or have correlated proxies of condition with sexual trait expression. We used nutritional geometry to quantify protein and carbohydrate intake by male cockroaches, Nauphoeta cinerea, and related this to sex pheromone expression, attractiveness, and dominance status. We found that carbohydrate, but not protein, intake is related to male sex pheromone expression and attractiveness but not dominance status. Additionally, we related two condition proxies (weight gain and lipid reserves) to protein and carbohydrate acquisition. Weight gain increased with the intake of both nutrients, whereas lipid reserves only increased with carbohydrate intake. Importantly, lipid accumulation was not as responsive to carbohydrate intake as attractiveness and thus was a less-accurate condition proxy. Moreover, males preferentially consumed high carbohydrate diets with little regard for protein content suggesting that they actively increase their carbohydrate intake thereby maximizing their reproductive fitness by being attractive.



-I've highlighted key points inRED. I can try to get access to the full-text publication through OhioLink if you'd like it and I can try to email them to you. Good stuff that your results are consistent DA! As the evidence piles up, we can make more pushes to proper roach husbandry that will offer the best colony growth and reproductive success. = )

you sent me something similar but not this exact explanation. does this sort of explain why roaches go crazy over bread products? Good info Jeff! Now i know that this very much applies to dubia but do you believe species such as hissers and lobster are similar? from my experience with hissers i can see the diet as of dubia being the exact same. lobsters i am still trying to figure out what works for them. I have only had the lobsters about a week. I have also read that orange heads and blatta lateralis require a much larger amount of protein than dubia, but we all now know that dubia dont require protein do you believe that this could also be false info?

[JeffreH]

Now i know that this very much applies to dubia but do you believe species such as hissers and lobster are similar? from my experience with hissers i can see the diet as of dubia being the exact same. lobsters i am still trying to figure out what works for them. I have only had the lobsters about a week.

They're nutritional needs are probably almost the same... both are generalist decomposers by nature. I'm also pretty convinced that roaches can be somewhat selective in what they eat... if you other a mixed variety of food items they will nibble on the items they prefer or need and will nitpick their feed. But roaches also eat and thrive on just about anything ; ) Bread/grain products are probably relished for their carbohydrate and amino acid content, while fruits and veggies are relished for carbohydrates, moisture, and various nutrients like carotenoids.

I have also read that orange heads and blatta lateralis require a much larger amount of protein than dubia, but we all now know that dubia dont require protein do you believe that this could also be false info?

Definitely - I think its the moisture they are interested in. Kyle Kandilian at RoachCrossing introduced me to the idea that moisture in the roach diet is more important than the high protein beliefs. When I increase the available water crystals or salad product in the Orange Head bins, I notice significantly less cannibalism/wing-biting behavior. The orange heads will definitely take to eating animal tissue more readily than other roaches I've kept though... they'll consume other insects that are kept with them and will apparently strip a rat carcass. But I don't think extra protein is required in the diet.

[Psychotic]

I keep my roaches in the extra slots in my snake rack. There is a temperature gradient. The hot spot is 85°f. I always read to feed my Dubai protein. But I rarely did. They always seemed fine on veggies and fruit. My colony is small. But I always have babies. Glad I'm not the only one who does it. Also my adults that I originally bought last September are still alive. I've yet to find dead roaches. How long is their average lifespan?

[demon amphibians]

I keep my roaches in the extra slots in my snake rack. There is a temperature gradient. The hot spot is 85°f. I always read to feed my Dubai protein. But I rarely did. They always seemed fine on veggies and fruit. My colony is small. But I always have babies. Glad I'm not the only one who does it. Also my adults that I originally bought last September are still alive. I've yet to find dead roaches. How long is their average lifespan?

way to use your resources. 85F is an excellent temp. and the humidity in the environment would also prove to be excellent, its something you wouldn't even have to monitor.. You know every care sheet from large breeders do recommend feeding protein, in fact I raised a colony from 1,000 to 40,000 on protein however when i started the protein free diet my reproduction went through the roof. If things keep going they way they are instead of 10,000 to 15,000 babies a breeding cycle i am looking at 40,000-50,000 a breeding cycle. This will make a world of difference for someone with a small or large colony.
once adult your males will live for around 9 months, females will live around 18 to 24 months. since i made the change all the deaths in my breeder bin are from old age. before i had random deaths of females that had just molted into adults. The highest protein content that i personally believe should be offered are found in grains. not only do your roaches breed better but your frogs will be much healthier. And that is the ultimate goal with roaches in the first place.